Rotating Magnetic Field's and Inductors.

[MileHigh]

A simple but telling test Gyula.

The permanent magnet is now doing the work the electromagnet was--it is that simple. It will be said that the waste heat from the electromagnet has now been turned into mechanical energy,but i say-what made that conversion?,and was work required to make that conversion from heat to mechanical energy?.

So far i have carried out the test given to me by those !!in the know!!,and so far the results from those test have not shown that the PM's are not doing work--everything is showing that they are.

Brad

If you believe that the permanent magnet is doing work in this test or your pulse motor test, then why don't you write up an explanation?  For this magnet-coil test you can talk about the energy components per pulse.  Even for your pulse motor, you may find it easier to just use energy and describe what's happening with a single pulse instead of expressing things in terms of average power, your choice.

If you are making a claim that permanent magnets are doing work, then how many joules of work and where in the cycle is it happening, etc?  Draw a timing diagram showing where and when the magnets are doing work.

I am not sure what you mean by a conversion from heat to mechanical energy but what I can tell you is this:  After looking at the clip and knowing that many of you guys have DSOs nowadays, it took me five minutes to come up with a first version of a revamped magnet-coil test that would prove conclusively that the magnets are not doing any work when they get pulsed by the coil.  The test would clearly explain why the heavier Neo magnet gets pushed much farther also.  It would actually make a good "pulse motor build off" type of challenge.

You can believe what you want Brad but if you claim the magnets are doing work then you should take up my challenge:  Do a write-up explaining exactly how, when, and why the magnets are doing work in one of your tests.  Like I said before, just looking at numbers on multimeters and saying, "Look, the numbers say the magnets are doing work" is not good enough.

MileHigh

[tinman]

If you believe that the permanent magnet is doing work in this test or your pulse motor test, then why don't you write up an explanation?  For this magnet-coil test you can talk about the energy components per pulse.  Even for your pulse motor, you may find it easier to just use energy and describe what's happening with a single pulse instead of expressing things in terms of average power, your choice.

If you are making a claim that permanent magnets are doing work, then how many joules of work and where in the cycle is it happening, etc?  Draw a timing diagram showing where and when the magnets are doing work.

I am not sure what you mean by a conversion from heat to mechanical energy but what I can tell you is this:  After looking at the clip and knowing that many of you guys have DSOs nowadays, it took me five minutes to come up with a first version of a revamped magnet-coil test that would prove conclusively that the magnets are not doing any work when they get pulsed by the coil.  The test would clearly explain why the heavier Neo magnet gets pushed much farther also.  It would actually make a good "pulse motor build off" type of challenge.

You can believe what you want Brad but if you claim the magnets are doing work then you should take up my challenge:  Do a write-up explaining exactly how, when, and why the magnets are doing work in one of your tests.  Like I said before, just looking at numbers on multimeters and saying, "Look, the numbers say the magnets are doing work" is not good enough.

MileHigh

Lets use a series wound universal motor running on a DC current for example. Now, are the stator electromagnets doing work?.
We run some mechanical load tests on the motor by way of a load generator placed on the output shaft of the motor. We can then get a base line of P/in for the motor, and P/out for the generator. We also place 2 CVRs on the motor so as the brushes for the rotor are between these CVRs. This way we can calculate the power that the rotor it self is consuming.
Now we know that as we are using a DC current, the stator windings will be dissipating heat. We now replace the two stator windings with PMs of the same field strength the stator windings were producing. We now adjust the power to the rotor so as it is to the value of that we measured before we replaced the stator windings with PMs. Now our motor is doing the same work it was before the changes were made.
So 1- is our motor now dissipating more or less heat over all now the PMs are in place?
2- has the P/in been reduced to obtain the same mechanical output energy
3- if the stator windings were doing useful work, then how is it that the PMs that replaced them are not?
4- is work being done when heat is converted to electrical or mechanical energy?.

[poynt99]

How can the same input energy to an electromagnet exert higher pushing force on a body with higher mass compared to a body with a lower mass?

Is this a trick question? I believe you answered yourself below...

Of course we know that the bodies are that of a ceramic (15 gram) and Neo (50 gram) magnets which have differing magnetic strengths.

[MileHigh]

Lets use a series wound universal motor running on a DC current for example. Now, are the stator electromagnets doing work?.
We run some mechanical load tests on the motor by way of a load generator placed on the output shaft of the motor. We can then get a base line of P/in for the motor, and P/out for the generator. We also place 2 CVRs on the motor so as the brushes for the rotor are between these CVRs. This way we can calculate the power that the rotor it self is consuming.
Now we know that as we are using a DC current, the stator windings will be dissipating heat. We now replace the two stator windings with PMs of the same field strength the stator windings were producing. We now adjust the power to the rotor so as it is to the value of that we measured before we replaced the stator windings with PMs. Now our motor is doing the same work it was before the changes were made.
So 1- is our motor now dissipating more or less heat over all now the PMs are in place?
2- has the P/in been reduced to obtain the same mechanical output energy
3- if the stator windings were doing useful work, then how is it that the PMs that replaced them are not?
4- is work being done when heat is converted to electrical or mechanical energy?.

No, your example is not workable.  In a universal motor by design you are expending electrical overhead to create the magnetic fields associated with the stator.  A very simplified model is a resistive power burn (that does not output mechanical work) to sustain the "static" stator magnetic fields and then more power to go to the rotor windings to do the actual mechanical output work.  I suppose in reality both the stator fields and the rotor fields in repulsion acting against each other do the work - and all of that work is coming from the input electrical power.  After all, they are just electromagnets in repulsion.

Yes, the input power will go down if you put in permanent magnets for the stator, but that is meaningless.  You are effectively saying, "I am burning resistive waste heat power to sustain my stator field, and I want to replace them with permanent magnets."  That power saving doesn't count towards anything and does not in any way represent "magnetic energy."

You need to find another setup for explaining how magnets are a source of energy.  For example, start off with a DC motor that has permanent magnets for the stator.  Where is the magnetic power in watts or magnetic energy in joules in that case?  I am sure that you have done many projects where you are claiming permanent magnets are doing work, like the one you are working on right now.  And "work" means joules of energy, in whatever form they manifest themselves.  You are alleging that joules of energy are in the form of "magnetic energy" coming from the magnets themselves.  Please cite an example with a full explanation like I requested in my previous posting.  Again, I am not asking for a measurement procedure, I am asking you for an explanation of a device that includes a "magnetic energy" component.

The same question goes out to all of the Timnan supporters that believe in "magnetic energy" - describe it working in a system.  Walk the walk.

MileHigh

[Magluvin]

Something to think about.

What is the efficiency of the system without the rotor?  Switching supplies that convert well can have excellent efficiency. But thinking about it, the magnetic field of the best switching supplies are closed systems. No magnetic openings for motoring. So if the efficiency of the system without the rotor is not of a high rating, then adding the motoring had better bring that eff level up to something very respectable in order for it to matter.  Many of the very efficient bldc motors out there dont have any notable time between switching poles vs pulsing of which has time periods of no force on the rotor at all. But they may have bemf between pwm pulsing. But if not much then.....

If we look at a 3 phase bldc, the way the switching happens, there probably isnt any field collapse to capture, as each switching reverses the coils polarity with brute force.  So if we look at the circuit below of a 3 phase bldc, I would change the circuit to have each coil on its own circuit, not having the coils connected to each other at all. This way we can run 2 coils at once while the third does have an off period, in the cycle of things, to collect field collapse currents. This will allow constant drive of the motor while giving off periods.

Im doing some tests on my electric bike motor this week. Not the Tidalforce motor I talked about earlier, it is a motor from ebay that is 8 yrs old with about 20kmi on it.  I want to look at the pulsing to the drive coils to see if I can pull bemf between pulses.  Im figuring just a bridge rectifier across all 3 pairs of wires. If the bemf capture is above input to the coils, the bridge to cap storage should not interfere with running of the motor by pulling from the input, because the cap(s) voltage should be most always higher than the input while running.

Mags