MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[poynt99]

With a non ideal coil,i have no problem with the current rising,as the CEMF value cannot be, and is not the same as that of the applied EMF,as we have a current rise that has an exponential curve,and this curve starts at T=0. And this is why i said that the resistance of the coils windings are the reason that the CEMF is a slightly lower value than the applied EMF. Even that !minute !amount will start a chain reaction when winding resistance is involved,and so the current can flow,due to the coils ability to dissipate energy. But that just is not the case when talking ideals--that is why they are ideal.

I've already stated this and I know it did not register, so here it is again:

With a non-ideal inductor, the instant Vin is applied, all the voltage appears across the inductance, and nothing across the resistance (assuming a lumped inductance and resistance model), therefore Vin=cemf, and lo and behold, current still begins to flow. In fact this is the moment the A/s is the highest rate!

Now, what happens if we were able to make R smaller and smaller?

[picowatt]

Makes perfect sense.

I do not know if Tinman is actually unable to grasp the concept of a negative feedback mechanism or if he is just being contrary to adhere to his belief that an inductor with zero resistance cannot function as an inductor (in spite of the large number of zero resistance inductors in use daily throughout the world).

PW

[minnie]

    Time to sharpen up your measurement skills tinman!
     If photons can go say 30,000,000,000. centimetres
     in a second it's going to take some doing.
              J.

[tinman]

I do not know if Tinman is actually unable to grasp the concept of a negative feedback mechanism or if he is just being contrary to adhere to his belief that an inductor with zero resistance cannot function as an inductor (in spite of the large number of zero resistance inductors in use daily throughout the world).

PW

Why do you wish to single me out PW,when there are more that believe what i believe,than there is those who believe what you believe on this thread.

It would seem that yourself,Poynt,and MH are the three that stand alone on this belief that current can flow when the EMF and CEMF are of the same value--the rest of us seem to be of the opinion that when the EMF and CEMF are of the same value,that no current will flow.

You also forget the fact that these !0! resistance inductors have stored energy applied to them in order to make them super conductors.
So no-we do not have !room! temperature super conductors,or ideal coils/inductors that do not dissipate energy--this is a fact,and for you to bring this into the discussion,only diverts traffic in the wrong direction.

The answer is always avoided by way of introducing real world configurations that dissipate power/energy--such as your feed back system.

A quote from my dad's book

Because no one has been able to discover fundamental realistic answers to explain phenomenal events like these, scientists have resorted to using strange speculative theories and extremely complicated mathematics in an attempt to perfect their otherwise imperfect scientific theoretical models.

And to quote Poynt

Even the official definitions don't make sense; "Increasing current in a coil of wire will generate a counter emf which opposes the current." How does an emf oppose a current?

It really comes down to this,the EE guys are always right,and need no such test to prove they are,and the rest of us are wrong--it's that simple.

I thank you for your time PW--and all,but my journey to find those who can see past the known is complete.



Brad

[picowatt]

Why do you wish to single me out PW,when there are more that believe what i believe,than there is those who believe what you believe on this thread.

It would seem that yourself,Poynt,and MH are the three that stand alone on this belief that current can flow when the EMF and CEMF are of the same value--the rest of us seem to be of the opinion that when the EMF and CEMF are of the same value,that no current will flow.

I have repeatedly stated that current will not flow if the EMF and CEMF are equal.  That is the basis for how an inductor limits the rate of change.  I truly wonder if I would have as much difficulty explaining any other negative feedback mechanism to you, or as I stated, if you are just being contrary for the sake of argument. 

You also forget the fact that these !0! resistance inductors have stored energy applied to them in order to make them super conductors.
So no-we do not have !room! temperature super conductors,or ideal coils/inductors that do not dissipate energy--this is a fact,and for you to bring this into the discussion,only diverts traffic in the wrong direction.

Zero resistance inductors are in use daily all over the world.  The fact that they must be cooled is not relevant to the discussion.  As energy is stored or retrieved using those zero resistance inductors, none of that energy is dissipated as heat.  It is the flow of heat towards the superconductor from the outside environment that must be dealt with.

The answer is always avoided by way of introducing real world configurations that dissipate power/energy--such as your feed back system.

A quote from my dad's book

And to quote Poynt


It really comes down to this,the EE guys are always right,and need no such test to prove they are,and the rest of us are wrong--it's that simple.

I thank you for your time PW--and all,but my journey to find those who can see past the known is complete.

Brad

So are you saying that you believe the "EE guys", as you put it, have not heavily investigated zero resistance inductors, that is, tested and proved, that as the resistance is removed from an inductor it behaves more and more like an ideal inductor?  The study of the properties of devices made from superconductors is a very large field of research.         

PW