MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[MileHigh]

<<<  Now,as virpies stated,you cannot place a voltage across a shorted ideal inductor,  >>>

Again, I believe I understand what Verpies meant because he responded to my questions about this.

A "shorted ideal inductor" just becomes a dead short circuit by his definition.  Half of the ideal turns cancel out the flux of the other half of the ideal turns and you end up with a "ideal zero ohm resistor with no inductance."

By his definition a "shorted ideal inductor" simply disappears from the circuit and looks like an ideal wire with zero inductance.

[verpies]

It is not "shorted" by a wire having no resistance.

An open inductor makes no more sense than a shorted capacitor and these components are complete conjugates of each other.

Open conductor cannot:
- store energy,
- maintain the level of flux that penetrates it,
- obey the Lenz law,
- generate magnetic flux density gradient that can do mechanical work. 

In fact an open inductor loses all of the properties of inductors except an empty voltage potential under varying flux conditions, that cannot even be measured without completing the inductor's circuit.

A straight length of ideal wire still has inductance and behaves accordingly. 

Yes, but what does it matter if k=1 ?

At no time is there any resistance in the ideal wire and at no time is there a requirement to short the inductor with another ideal wire to model it. 

The requirement to close the inductor's circuit is there every time you want an inductor to act as an inductor and do more than nothing.
That's why some good simulators will not even allow you to have an open inductor in a simulation and out of those they don't have problems with open capacitors.

I remind you that inductors and capacitors are complete conjugates (col: opposites) of each other.

[tinman]

That an ideal 0V source is equivalent to an ideal conductor? By deduction, that is what it is. It is common sense. It is impractical of course (except in simulators where it can be used to measure current), but it is a precise equivalent. Doesn't an ideal non-inductive conductor always have 0V across it? Well, so does an ideal voltage source set to 0V.


No.
Of course you can.

Regardless of whether there is a voltage or not,the fact that there is no internal series resistance means that the current can still flow through that voltage source unimpeded.
When we drop down to 0 volts (as stated in MHs question),the current will continue to flow,and at a steady state.

Yep, I'm not arguing against that.

I'm not sure what verpies is saying, but the fact is that when the voltage drops to 0V (even after it was at some non-zero level), you will measure 0V across the inductor.

But we agree that the inductor is now a shorted loop,and current is flowing through this circuit loop that includes the ideal voltage source(not to be confused with the ideal voltage,which now has a value of 0 volts)

To quote verpies

It is impossible to connect such voltage source across a shorted ideal inductor, because in such case  this voltage source would see a load, which does not have any resistance nor reactance

So now i ask--
At 0 volts we both agree that we are in a shorted(looped) condition,and a steady current is flowing through this shorted ideal inductor loop,and due to the 0 resistance value,it will continue to flow infinitely. How is this short removed just by turning up the voltage on the ideal voltage source?
If it is not removed,then how are you placing a voltage across this !now shorted! ideal inductor?

The paradox being-quote verpies-->It is impossible to connect such voltage source across a shorted ideal inductor.

Is there some sort of two kinds of !shorted!?.
A short is a short-is it not?.


Brad

[tinman]

I wonder if MH would have said that the current continued to flow through his circuit during the 0 volt time of his question?

I think not,as it would have been something he would never have seen,due to not understanding the meaning of Ideal.
But we will never know,as he never would answer his own question


Brad

[MileHigh]

I wonder if MH would have said that the current continued to flow through his circuit during the 0 volt time of his question?

I think not,as it would have been something he would never have seen,due to not understanding the meaning of Ideal.
But we will never know,as he never would answer his own question

Brad

You think wrong. I intentionally stated that the voltage becomes zero volts to see if you guys would get that.

You're just being ridiculous when you say I do not understand the meaning of "ideal."

You guys apparently are slowly but surely getting up the learning curve.

Do you now accept the fact that an ideal voltage source can output a voltage waveform that changes in time?