MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[tinman]

You have to think Plan B because Plan A is a no-go.

Ok,i will give it some more thought.


Brad

[tinman]

Ok,i will give it some more thought.


Brad

No
No matter how i try and find a way for the stored energy to be dissipated before the opposite potential of that stored energy is released into the system,there is just no where for it to go.
Even using your flywheel analogy MH,it would mean the the flywheel would have to be stopped instantly,and sent spinning in the opposite direction. If there is no where to burn off(dissipate)that stored energy in the spinning flywheel,then the flywheel cannot be stopped-but were going to do that anyway with the ideal voltage source.

The homopolar motor would be a very close representation of this situation.
You place a voltage across the round magnet,and the magnet starts spinning in one direction. You remove the voltage ,and the magnet will keep spinning due to inertia/energy stored within that spinning mass. We then swap the voltage polarity over,and apply it to that spinning magnet,and now the magnet wants to spin the other way. The spinning magnet now becomes a generator that is producing a current flow opposite to that of the now inverted voltage. As we know,at this point in time,we will now have a very high current value between the spinning magnet,and the voltage source,and a lot of heat will be produced because of this. In this case,the energy stored in the spinning magnet is dissipated as heat,and the magnet will slow to a stop,and start spinning the other way.  But in the ideal case,there is no resistance,and there for no way to dissipate the stored energy as heat. One current source want to go one way,and the other current source want the current to start flowing the other way. The result is an extreme instant current between the stored energy and the ideal voltage source.

I can see no where in the ideal circuit,where the stored energy can be dissipated,and it cant be stored within the system,as it is the opposite to that of what the ideal voltage source wishes to place in the system.


Brad

[shylo]

Hi Tinman,  "I can see no where in the ideal circuit,where the stored energy can be dissipated,and it cant be stored within the system,as it is the opposite to that of what the ideal voltage source wishes to place in the system."

Maybe ,and is what I think is, that all systems do store opposites at the same time occupying the same space.
artv

[tinman]

Hi Tinman,  "I can see no where in the ideal circuit,where the stored energy can be dissipated,and it cant be stored within the system,as it is the opposite to that of what the ideal voltage source wishes to place in the system."

Maybe ,and is what I think is, that all systems do store opposites at the same time occupying the same space.
artv

To put it simple,the flywheel cannot spin CW and CCW at the same time.
The energy is stored as a magnetic field in this case,and the magnetic field must decline to a 0 value before the opposite field can be induced. The only way the original magnetic field can collapse,is if the energy stored in that field has some where to go,or can be dissipated. As it has no where to go,due to it being in a closed loop,and there is no way of dissipating it's stored energy,due to there being no resistance in the loop,then it must remain.


Brad

[tinman]

Not trying to get into a debate, not trying to learn anything or teach anyone anything.  These are my opinions, they do not require the approval anyone reading this. 


A flywheel cannot spin in two directions at once, however, one can spin two in opposite directions at the same time and arrange them in a manner which will allow them to constructively or destructively influence one another. 


In my opinion its not wise to compare flywheel energy storage with magnetic energy storage, there are many reasons for this, for the sake of this post I only refer to two or three.  The speed at which a magnetic energy storage can be charged and discharged is orders of magnitude faster than a flywheel energy storage is able to charge and discharge.  The reactive cross section of the magnetic energy storage can be manipulated on the fly where as the flywheel energy storage cannot.  There's the issue with the magnetic field of a magnetic energy storage system inverting when the current responsible for its manifestation is removed.   





I don't need anyone to tell me what I can and more than likely have read over and over again on my own.  What I have read, what we've all read, cannot explain what I am seeing on the bench, so please save the lessons in electronics, and "accepted" component behavior I am not interested.  Please don't take this the wrong way, I am simply growing tired of coming here and seeing nothing but this game of who has the biggest pair.  It should be clear by now that the guy with the biggest pair is the one who was kicked the hardest.


Fact is....we are all looking for something, most are looking for the same thing, it's clear from a casual review of the various topics that no one here has it, all the more reason to work together and not waste time nit picking bullshit.  Stop trying to teach and correct each other, it's not working, its counter productive.  If we work together and find it, but don't know what we have because we don't know what we are looking at....BIG DEAL, we will loose it, let them loose it!  We will be forced to retrace our steps, and this second, third or 100th time around we will be mindful, motivated in by the fact that we did it, but lost it, and also motivated by the whispers of "I told you so....I told you so..." 


Regards

The potential which is induced by an expanding magnetic field (magnetic energy storage being charged) is not the same polarity as the potential which is induced by a collapsing magnetic field (magnetic energy storage being discharged).  This latter bit is difficult pill for some to digest, I take comfort in Faraday's law, from it one is informed of the polarity of the inducing field via the polarity of the EMF it induces.

Well as we are not talking about an EMF,then i dont know what your post is about?.
We are talking current flow,and the direction of the current flow that created the magnetic field will continue to be the same when that field collapses. The circuit is a closed ideal loop,and so there is no open circuit for an EMF to be produced.

When we close the switch on the circuit which includes an inductor "something" is motivated to move in a very specific manner through and about that circuit. Whatever this "something" is, it tends to want to continue in this very same direction after the circuit is opened, whatever this "something" is, its crystal clear (to me) it's not magnetism, the magnetism inverted, that which remains nameless was motivated by the magnetism, it continues to move in the direction dictated by the conditions established when the magnetic energy storage was charging....

Once again,the circuit is never open--it remains a constant loop-an ideal constant loop.


Brad