MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[Magluvin]

Magluvin:

I spent 10 minutes searching both threads but I could not find the original posts.

However, it is easy to restate and you already stated it:  When Cap A is at 7.071 volts a "magic ideal switch" instantly moves the coil so that it is across Cap B only and there is also an ideal diode.  It doesn't matter what value the coil is, the coil will charge Cap B to 7.071 volts and the coil pumps the "missing" electrons to bring Cap B up to 7.071 volts.

We had a very civil conversation about that.

And I am going to repeat to you again that I do not want to be harassed by you and I am requesting that you make a public posting stating that you will not harass me any more.

I do not want to endure another year of torture from you.  Do you understand that?

MileHigh

Yes I understand that we can get 7.07v in each cap from a source cap of 10v using the inductor.

But when we consider the electron count, as Webby has put up that the electron count is directly related to the voltage of a particular cap value, then there is a problem with the ideal cap to cap supposed outcome.


Forget the inductor version.  Just direct cap to cap, Ideal and Real world examples. 

The electron count screws up the idea of an ideal cap with 10v connected to an ideal cap of 0v, ends in both caps having 7.07v each.  This conclusion would need extra electrons added to the system.  Or the addition of the inductor and switching to pull more electrons from the pos to the neg of the receiving cap..   So the ideal direct cap to cap will end with 5v each from a 10v source cap. We still lost 50%. If no heat loss or other loss in the ideal world, how did we still lose 50% with the ideal cap to cap gig? And if Im correct, then resistance is 'not the cause' of the 50% loss. Also if Im correct, how will it change how we should think about heat losses in other areas of science?

I hope you dont read that as harassment, other than I seem to have to repeat this stuff many times with this to get the point across. Poynt seems to be close to understanding what Im getting at. 

This could be a very important discovery.  It could possibly show an example of losing energy without it being converted to another form, heat. If there is no induction in the ideal cap, then we cannot be losing it as magnetic radio radiation.

So for me, I would hope that someone can explain this if they know how and why, etc.

Mags

[minnie]

  Have a look at 795.
       John.

[Magluvin]

I think he wrote that, because two electrons can represent different energies depending on their separation distance and the work needed to move them closer together is a result of their repulsion force integrated over the distance of their approach. 
Reminder: The instantaneous repulsion force of two electrons is inversely proportional to the square of the distance (1/d²) between them.

BTW: this is an example how the same amount of charge (here, the two electrons) can represent very different levels of energy.
In other words: Charge alone, is not energy.

This is post 795 above.

"BTW: this is an example how the same amount of charge (here, the two electrons) can represent very different levels of energy.
In other words: Charge alone, is not energy."

I can agree with that.  But if we know the value of the capacitance, and the value of charge, then there is an energy value directly related to those values as to how much energy is held in the cap.

Anyway...

Mags

[MileHigh]

Yes I understand that we can get 7.07v in each cap from a source cap of 10v using the inductor.

But when we consider the electron count, as Webby has put up that the electron count is directly related to the voltage of a particular cap value, then there is a problem with the ideal cap to cap supposed outcome.


Forget the inductor version.  Just direct cap to cap, Ideal and Real world examples. 

The electron count screws up the idea of an ideal cap with 10v connected to an ideal cap of 0v, ends in both caps having 7.07v each.  This conclusion would need extra electrons added to the system.  Or the addition of the inductor and switching to pull more electrons from the pos to the neg of the receiving cap..   So the ideal direct cap to cap will end with 5v each from a 10v source cap. We still lost 50%. If no heat loss or other loss in the ideal world, how did we still lose 50% with the ideal cap to cap gig? And if Im correct, then resistance is 'not the cause' of the 50% loss. Also if Im correct, how will it change how we should think about heat losses in other areas of science?

I hope you dont read that as harassment, other than I seem to have to repeat this stuff many times with this to get the point across. Poynt seems to be close to understanding what Im getting at. 

This could be a very important discovery.  It could possibly show an example of losing energy without it being converted to another form, heat. If there is no induction in the ideal cap, then we cannot be losing it as magnetic radio radiation.

So for me, I would hope that someone can explain this if they know how and why, etc.

Mags

Well Mags, there you go.  I asked you politely three times to post publicly that you will not harass me any more and you refuse to do it.  You are not enough of a man to admit that you were wrong and simply post that you would not harass me anymore.

[MileHigh]

With respect to the two ideal caps connecting to each other, that's like two temporary ideal voltage sources connecting to each other where infinite current wants to flow.  It simply doesn't work and it gives you some insight into why the simulation programs have to sometimes have insignificant resistor values added to the sim to get them to run properly.

I already discussed a way of looking at this with Magluvin before using a very small inductor between the two caps.  As the inductor value goes towards zero, the oscillation frequency goes towards infinity.

Connecting two ideal caps together with a different voltage simply doesn't work.  That's the real answer.

That's why I groan when I see people post schematics with two car batteries connected in parallel.  It doesn't make sense and could be a recipe for disaster.