MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[ramset]

TinMan extends a Kind hand in a peaceful gesture to move forward!
MileHigh wants more Blood ,and curls The Lip?

[tinman]

Brad:

I am going to ask you the question again:

Way back very early in the thread I posted that formula and told you that it was basically the short answer to the question.  When I did that you went into a small frenzy and you insulted me like a drunk sailor.  So what gives, how do you explain using the formula now when before when I showed you the very same formula you insulted me repeatedly like a drunk sailor?

MileHigh

OK MH
I will try and explain this one more time.
1st-As i said,i was giving back as good as i was getting,as far as your insulting go's.
I would like to point you toward post two,the very second post on this thread,and your very first post on this thread-->quote: You are one strange egg Brad because you think you are "running the show" now but in fact the show is running you.
1.  Brad gets up the learning curve and understands the original question and then answers it correctly all by himself and clearly demonstrates that he understands what he is doing.
2.  Brad admits that he is wrong when he stated that my response to the harder question is wrong.

You will see my first post said--Please keep the insults down,and the language clean.
And my last line in that post was-->For the record,could you please post your answer to your question above?
As you can see,i asked for insults to be kept down,and also asked you very politely to post your answer. So i think you can see from just the first two posts on this thread,who wanted it to run smooth without insults,and who was the first to cast the first insult--and it just escalated from there.
Perhaps you should go and read the first page of the thread,and see who was demeaning to who.

2nd- As i have already tried to explain to you,i do not agree that the formula being used is correct from T=5 seconds to T=7 seconds. I only used your formula to show you that i am quite capable of dealing with generic formulas,and calculating generic results. I told you i could do this very early in the thread--perhaps you thought i could not. All the information to do so is on the net,and i can learn very quickly.

But once again,i only gave you what you wanted to see,and i gave it correctly.
But as i have said on more than one occasion now,this dose not mean that i believe them to be correct in this situation. In a non ideal situation,this collision of energy would be burnt of as heat,via the internal resistance of the voltage source and the coil it self. But being that we are in an ideal situation,this collision energy cannot be dissipated as heat,as there is no series resistance in the circuit.


Brad

[tinman]

The point of asking you to draw out the wave form not so we can just dismiss it, it is to see how your thinking has caused you to arrive at your theory, and to see how to steer you toward the correct understanding. Yes of course your wave form trace is correct. It is not MH's way btw, it is just how it is, it is physics and it is reality (even with an ideal or near-ideal inductor).
I would use the formula MH posted. But I prefer to use the sim, which btw, fully supports the formula and the graph you have drawn out.

As i said,you are not interested in what i have to say,as you have stated that you wish to !!steer!! me in the right direction.
I have already stated my concerns,and why--several times now,but maybe you missed them all.

How will the steady state current flow of 2.4 amps effect the seen inductance value by the EMF that wishes to induce a current flow in the opposite direction at T=5 second's?. The reason i ask this,is because that current flow of 2.4 amps,will be seen as a high value impedance to the current trying to be induced during the negative voltage part of the cycle. At the moment,the current value for T=7 seconds, is being calculated on the assumption that the inductance value seen by the now negative EMF is still 5H. I am only asking if this higher impedance value,due to the !already flowing! 2.4 amps of current acting against the current that the negative EMF is trying to induce,will alter the inductance value seen by that negative EMF.

To me it seems that the EMF will see a different inductance value,and there for a different impedance value,when the coil has no current flowing through it at T=0, to that when the current flowing through it is 2.4 amps,but of opposite polarity.

To make this clear,please see diagrams below to see the difference that i am trying to explain.

Brad

[wattsup]

@tinman

At least I agree with you the the wave form should not be like that but maybe for another reason.

For me, ideal voltage has zero resistance, ideal inductor has zero resistance so at 4 seconds when the voltage suddenly drops to 0 volts, what is 0 - 0 - at 0 is just like an inductor being disconnected and what happens when an inductor is disconnected especially at 5H, should create a good discharge of the 2.4 * 4 = 8.8 watts. Some will hit back into the ideal voltage but most will just dissipate.  At least in real life if you had a 5H coil in your hand changed at 4 volts and 2.4 amps and if you just turned off the power supply, good luck.

So each zero point for me is like an inductive discharge.

Again what is missing is data is the question. We have to suppose to many things. Is it DC ideal voltage. If so then the applied negative is always at zero volts and the positive is the one changing voltage at t0 and at t4 and t6, but then at t6 to t8 both polarities are switched for the applied -3 while the volt meter stays were it is, so you have a different effect because both ends of the ideal voltage are changed.

Anyways, I guess the answer has to be as lazy as the question.

Or, you have to do like 1000 EE students probably have to do when they are confronted with this question is to just play the game, don't break your head, say yes yes yes and just pass. hahahaha

wattsup

[poynt99]

As i said,you are not interested in what i have to say,as you have stated that you wish to !!steer!! me in the right direction.
I have already stated my concerns,and why--several times now,but maybe you missed them all.

How will the steady state current flow of 2.4 amps effect the seen inductance value by the EMF that wishes to induce a current flow in the opposite direction at T=5 second's?. The reason i ask this,is because that current flow of 2.4 amps,will be seen as a high value impedance to the current trying to be induced during the negative voltage part of the cycle. At the moment,the current value for T=7 seconds, is being calculated on the assumption that the inductance value seen by the now negative EMF is still 5H. I am only asking if this higher impedance value,due to the !already flowing! 2.4 amps of current acting against the current that the negative EMF is trying to induce,will alter the inductance value seen by that negative EMF.

To me it seems that the EMF will see a different inductance value,and there for a different impedance value,when the coil has no current flowing through it at T=0, to that when the current flowing through it is 2.4 amps,but of opposite polarity.

To make this clear,please see diagrams below to see the difference that i am trying to explain.

Brad

Brad, the honest truth is that I don't understand your explanation nor your questions. I can't make sense of them. So rather than spending my time trying to understand your theory, I asked you to plot out your current trace according to your understanding, which gives me instant insight into your thinking. Then I might have a chance of steering you in the right direction. But you state that you can not plot out the current according to your theory, while at the same time, rejecting the present accepted theory which is not only predicted by equation and simulation, but makes sense from the conceptual point of view. I think if you are going to reject a theory, you should have one the you feel is the correct one, and be able to explain it and prove that the existing one is incorrect. So far I have not seen this from you.