Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment

[F6FLT]

Okay, Chet, this is the right way.
I have often been caught by measurement errors, some of my fault, others related to the measurement equipment (e. g. my FG Siglent generates a few mV in DC superimposed on the sine signal!).
That is why this Tinselkoala's video is so exemplary. He simply shows the measurements and how he does them, without any definitive conclusion because I suspect he doubts and wants to check, which is to his credit.

[ramset]

IMO...If this forum were a place which supported members like this who actually build and share honest measurement protocols for scrutiny and discussion.
we would be a million miles closer to where we need to be .
he was an asset which will be very hard to replace


Maybe we can fix that here ??real science is hard to resist ..........

[partzman]

PBT//Partzmans Bifilar transformer
F6FLT ...I understand the frustration from The author of the Video , he tries to explain to persons herethat even measurements must be scrutinized to the finest degree [his hidden message in this vid] ,soooo many times there is a surprise at the end of the scrutiny
and here in this forum persons who dare to measure get threats and attacks ,..that is why you don't see them here too much ,and you do see persons flaunting failures as fact ?
I am not versed in the error which manifest to produce this particular measurement error.and I must also add Partzman still works with Smudge and others to find all these errors//...after all it is the only way to advance and not be fooled [the Feynman tag at the bottom of the Tinsels posts.//
Brutal honesty is the only way forward ,if the scientific method is abandoned ....there is no way to Progress ,this just becomes a place for secret book writers ,fraudsters and scammers

I will ask Partzman to explain this error [to be sure I have this correct ]but he may not answer here as certain persons are attacking the scientific method here at this time.[not referencing any members here in this thread]

..if he does not respond personally ,I will be sure to post the reply.
respectfully..Chet//
Ps to add // I see these errors as sharpening the spear [and so does the Partzman]the hunt will never stop

Since this is my circuit being discussed I will answer the question regarding measurement error with this specific configuration by saying  "is there any error"?  TK may have been tongue-in-cheek but was he?

The potential measurement error with this type of circuit (a reactive to real power converter) comes from two sources.  First, the high ratio of reactive to real power and second, the requirement of the scope used to discern "minutes" of phase angle measurements.  This requires extreme care when deskewing the probes used (particularly the current measurement) plus probe connections and layout.

Are these converters capable of producing more energy out than in, yes they are but with a caveat in determining if they are or not.  The input sinewave is the point of reference for the input power.  However, in the test TK shows and in nearly all others I've done, this sinewave was generated by some outside means such as a signal generator for low levels or a pulse generator driving a resonant L/C circuit.  The former is usually produced by Direct Digital Synthesis which may or may not require more energy than is produced at the output, but the later always requires more energy.

Herein lies the problem to be solved IMO!

Pm

[ayeaye]

this sinewave was generated by some outside means such as a signal generator for low levels or a pulse generator driving a resonant L/C circuit. The former is usually produced by Direct Digital Synthesis which may or may not require more energy than is produced at the output, but the later always requires more energy.

This doesn't matter. Or, it does matter. If we need to really generate energy for any practical purpose. But this work is theoretical, at the beginning it is always theoretical. Thus, it only matters whether there is overunity in the circuit. Or whether there is overunity in any part of the circuit, or whether there is overunity anywhere. How much energy generating the input really takes, doesn't matter, this is not a theoretical issue.

[F6FLT]

@partzman

I think we are only at the proof of concept phase and not yet at the realization of a real stand-alone device, what matters right now is to know the power of the signal provided by the generator (no matter how much it consumes), and to compare it to the output power. While there is a doubt on the result, we cant take OU for sure.

In addition to the two potential measurement errors you noticed, a third and strong possible flaw is an induced current in the measurement loop. The PBTs are rather poorly designed, with their ground wire that can make a wide loop through which leaks of variable magnetic flux can induce currents that completely distort the result (I had the problem).
I look forward to TK's conclusion.