Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment

[ayeaye]

I had an error in all previous calculations, i don't know why did i divide by 10. The power calculated in the iteration is in mW, the time is in ns, so when multiplying that by time and dividing it by 1000000 (million) instead of billion, we get energy in uJ, and when multiplying that by frequency in Hz, we get power in uW. This is how it must be and this is how it now is. So all results were evidently 10 times less, but this didn't change the output/input power ratio. The Python calculation script with that error corrected, is now the following.

import sys

#Time scale in us
XU = 2.0
#Voltage scale in V
YU = 0.225
#Resistors 2 and 3 resistances in ohms
R2 = 987.2
R3 = 99.91
#Voltage of the power supply in V
V = 12.0
#Collector voltage in V
VC = 0.3
#Frequency in kHz
F = 110.001

#Oscilloscope scale is 100 squares, square is 10 units
#In calculations XU and YU are in ns and mV for unit
#Voltages are in mV and frequency is in Hz
V *= 1000
VC *= 1000
F *= 1000
ilist = []
olist = []
e = 0.0
n = 0

def gety(list, n, t):
    lx = float(list[n][2] - list[n][0])
    ly = float(list[n][3] - list[n][1])
    dx = float(t - list[n][0])
    dy = ly * abs(dx / lx)
    return (list[n][1] + dy) * YU

def output(s, e):
    #Energy in uJ
    e *= XU / 1000000
    print("%s power was %.3f uW" % (s, F * e))

for s in sys.stdin:
    l = []
    i1 = 1
    if (s[0] != "I" and s[0] != "O"): continue
    for j in range(4):
        i0 = i1 + 1
        i1 = s.find(" ", i0)
        if (i1 == -1): i1 = len(s)
        l.append(int(s[i0:i1]))
    if (s[0] == "I"): ilist.append(l)
    if (s[0] == "O"): olist.append(l)

for t in range(ilist[-1][2]):
    while (t >= ilist[n][2]): n += 1;
    vlr = gety(ilist, n, t)
    pr = vlr * vlr / R3 / 1000
    ilr = (V - VC - vlr) / R2
    plr = ilr * vlr / 1000
    pl = plr - pr
    e += pl
output("Input", e)

n = 0
e = 0.0
for t in range(olist[-1][2]):
    while (t >= olist[n][2]): n += 1;
    vlr = gety(olist, n, t)
    pr = vlr * vlr / R3 / 1000
    e += pr
output("Output", e)

The output of that script with the data from the previous coaxial coil test graph, was the following.

Input power was 173.492 uW
Output power was 79.925 uW

I also got the sample data of the same test directly from the oscilloscope screen image, as i described above. This sample data was the following.

https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/4nQzyT47W5

The following is the Python script that calculates directly from sample data, this can also be used to calculate from the sample data taken from the oscilloscope, provided that the numbers precede by the letter I or O. In that sample data one oscilloscope scale was 50 (which was also 50 pixels on screen), the numbers are relative to the x axis, and the output part is inverted.

import sys

#Time scale in us
XU = 2.0
#Voltage scale in V
YU = 0.225
#Resistors 2 and 3 resistances in ohms
R2 = 987.2
R3 = 99.91
#Voltage of the power supply in V
V = 12.0
#Collector voltage in V
VC = 0.3
#Frequency in kHz
F = 110.001

#The length of a scale is 50 pixels
#In calculations XU and YU are in ns and mV for unit
#Voltages are in mV and frequency is in Hz
V *= 1000
VC *= 1000
F *= 1000
XU *= 1000 / 50
YU *= 1000 / 50
ilist = []
olist = []
e = 0.0

for s in sys.stdin:
    if (s[0] == "I"): ilist.append(int(s[2 : len(s)]))
    if (s[0] == "O"): olist.append(int(s[2 : len(s)]))

for t in range(len(ilist)):
    vlr = ilist[t] * YU
    pr = vlr * vlr / R3 / 1000
    ilr = (V - VC - vlr) / R2
    plr = ilr * vlr / 1000
    pl = plr - pr
    e += pl
e *= XU / 1000000
print("Input power was %.3f uW" % (F * e))

e = 0.0
for t in range(len(olist)):
    vlr = olist[t] * YU
    pr = vlr * vlr / R3 / 1000
    e += pr
e *= XU / 1000000
print("Output power was %.3f uW" % (F * e))

The output of that Python script with the sample data above, was the following.

Input power was 209.347 uW
Output power was 111.954 uW

As one can see, this differs a lot from the results above. This shows the great imprecision of the method of extracting values directly from the oscilloscope's screen image.

If this Python script was still too complicated, split it into two as the following, calculating the input and output parts separately. Then you don't need letters before the numbers, just a list of the input part, and the list of the output part. List like this:

7
8
4

import sys

#Time scale in us
XU = 2.0
#Voltage scale in V
YU = 0.225
#Resistors 2 and 3 resistances in ohms
R2 = 987.2
R3 = 99.91
#Voltage of the power supply in V
V = 12.0
#Collector voltage in V
VC = 0.3
#Frequency in kHz
F = 110.001

#The length of a scale is 50 pixels
#In calculations XU and YU are in ns and mV for unit
#Voltages are in mV and frequency is in Hz
V *= 1000
VC *= 1000
F *= 1000
XU *= 1000 / 50
YU *= 1000 / 50
ilist = []
e = 0.0

for s in sys.stdin: ilist.append(int(s))

for t in range(len(ilist)):
    vlr = ilist[t] * YU
    pr = vlr * vlr / R3 / 1000
    ilr = (V - VC - vlr) / R2
    plr = ilr * vlr / 1000
    pl = plr - pr
    e += pl
e *= XU / 1000000
print("Input power was %.3f uW" % (F * e))

import sys

#Time scale in us
XU = 2.0
#Voltage scale in V
YU = 0.225
#Resistors 2 and 3 resistances in ohms
R2 = 987.2
R3 = 99.91
#Voltage of the power supply in V
V = 12.0
#Collector voltage in V
VC = 0.3
#Frequency in kHz
F = 110.001

#The length of a scale is 50 pixels
#In calculations XU and YU are in ns and mV for unit
#Voltages are in mV and frequency is in Hz
V *= 1000
VC *= 1000
F *= 1000
XU *= 1000 / 50
YU *= 1000 / 50
olist = []
e = 0.0

for s in sys.stdin: olist.append(int(s))

for t in range(len(olist)):
    vlr = olist[t] * YU
    pr = vlr * vlr / R3 / 1000
    e += pr
e *= XU / 1000000
print("Output power was %.3f uW" % (F * e))

Also if you have no other graphing tools, then with the following you can plot a graph from a list, a point graph or bar graph. Just paste the list to the column A there, and select A as the Y source. Then you can separate the input and output parts.

https://plot.ly/create/#/

[TinselKoala]

This shows the great imprecision of the method of extracting values directly from the oscilloscope's screen image.

And transferring an oscilloscope's screen image to a graphing program and then extracting values from that isn't going to improve the precision, either. And as you've found... some bugs don't show up until we've already proclaimed our programs to be without error. How can you be absolutely sure there aren't other bugs or errors?


My next step, in progress, is to make a coaxial bifilar coil more similar to yours. Your next step, if you will allow me to suggest it, is for you to rebuild your circuit and reproduce your scopetraces and re-analyze the new traces. Then we can start looking at common sources of error in analog scoposcopy, like hidden DC bias errors or improperly locating the zero baseline of a trace.
As long as I can't produce OU measurements on my digital scope because maybe my coils aren't good enough, and as long as you can't reanalyze your own coil using a well-constructed circuit and a DSO... I don't know how else to proceed.

[FixedSys]

Can this be self looped and drive a joule thief to indicate it's running?

[ayeaye]

Can this be self looped and drive a joule thief to indicate it's running?

This experiment is only for measuring whether there is overunity in the coil. When there is enough overunity in the coil, then a self looped device likely can be made, but this is not the purpose of this experiment. On the other hand, the effort of making a self looped device is likely worthless when the coil has no overunity.

More generally, this experiment shows the energy efficiency of the coil, it shows overunity when the coil has overunity, or the measure of unity when it doesn't have overunity. Even with no overunity, this experiment may be important for making circuits where coils are used, as it may be important to know their energy efficiency. It also enables to research how different types of coils behave.

When one has a coil, especially when one wants to use it for an overunity device, then likely this experiment should be done first with that coil, to see the energy efficiency of the coil. No matter what one will use that coil for, even when using it in the devices like Bedini motor.

This experiment is for measuring the energy efficiency of all types of coils, including various pancake coils, Rodin coils, starship coils, Abha coils, unification coils, other bifilar coils, any of the large variety of coils there are. Pancake coil was the first i used it for, and i like pancake coils, i also like pancakes, so i like to call the experiment pancake.

This experiment does not include measuring other forms of energy that coils may produce, like static electricity that certain pancake coils may create. Or this can be added to this experiment to measure the whole energy efficiency of the coil.

I will also provide the lists of the input and output parts from the above, like for test calculations. The samples are for each horizontal pixel, they are number of pixels and relative to the x axis, the output part is inverted. Oscilloscope scale on Rigol is 50 pixels. The input list was the following.

https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/Gvj9K4Mf6x

And the output list was the following.

https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/zJpNxZG5QQ

For Python use online compiler, if Python is not installed, select Python there. For spreadsheet use LibreOffice Calc, i hope, at least not Excel When copying code or other data from this forum, select the text, but don't move the mouse pointer out of the quote box, copy when the pointer is in the box, otherwise it will add spaces before each line, that will give error.

https://www.ideone.com

[F6FLT]

Hi everybody

The current experimentations here and there with bifilar coils made me want to try it too (thanks guys). If anomalous results are observed, which remains to be confirmed, then we may have a theory behind it with nuclear or electronic spin resonance phenomena.  The NMR/ESR is the guiding idea that gets me started in experimentation, that's why I plan to change from conventional wire coils to flat copper tape coils. In spite it will not be an exact duplication of ayeaye's experiment, I would like to inform you that I started today. I failed to do a correct winding, the copper tape is very thin and easily damaged. I just ordered some of these tapes again, like these:
https://www.amazon.com/Double-Sided-Conductive-Shielding-Soldering-Electrical/dp/B074QN1YNH/ref=sr_1_25

These tapes should provide a higher capacity between turns. Although they are very thin, the effective conduction depth due to the skin effect is only 65µm at 1 MHz and 20 µm at 10MHz so we will not lose much of the effective resistance at RF frequencies.
I think another interest is the much better regularity of the electric field between the two tapes because of a constant spacing between conductors unlike wires of round cross-section.
The thinness of the tapes is also an advantage if nuclear or electronic spin resonance phenomena are involved, as there will be less dispersion of the magnetic field in the conductor bulk.
I hope for my first results next week (positive or negative!).