Stanley Meyers revisited

[kentoot]

I don't know, I feel like we're digging too much into the 'resonant' thing. I feel this is not the key. I think that the frequency of the high voltage pulse in WFC is important in the sense that the WFC must be able to accumulate charge (see the step voltage charging in SM patent) without introducing much current into it.

If you read SM patent WO9207861A1, you'll found out that different WFC configuration requires different "resonant" frequency. well, this didn't ring any bell in my head, cause I feel that the resonant frequency of water should be fixed regardless of WFC configuration. Ofcourse there are different kinds of water (impurities bla bla bla) that might justify the frequency difference but we are specifically targeting the H2O, not the impurities. Meaning the resonant frequency of H2O should remain the same, regardless of any impurities presence. We are not trying to resonate the impurities, just the H2O.

I think is the the high electric field (high voltage) that decomposes the water, not the frequency. The frequency is needed only as a way to "charge" the WFC without consuming much current. The water in WFC will decompose only when the WFC charge reaches high voltage (reaches water dielectric breakdown voltage). This way Stanley is able to get hydrogen from much less current.
 
In fact we don't need any kind of frequency AT ALL to decompose water (or to break down a dielectric in general), we just need a dc electric field (dc voltage), that all, PERIOD. We don't need high current, frequency etc.

If we treat water as a dielectric and we want to break down the water 'dielectric' to get hydrogen (& oxygen), actually what we need is just to expose the dielectric with a dc electric field (dc voltage) higher than its withstanding voltage strength (dielectric strength).

We know the dielectric strength of water, so we pretty much know the voltage (electric field) required to break down water in a specific distance. Now the challenge is to prevent current flow in the water. One way is like what Stan Meyer did, using high voltage pulses.

There is another way, that is to cover the electrode with material that can block the current flow, but do not block the electric field. (material with high dielectric constant & dielectric strength, like certain type of ceramic) Once you can do this, you can just use dc high voltage, no need frequency or any complicated electronics.

Look at patent US4427512 :
"WATER DECOMPOSITION METHOD AND DEVICE USING IONIZATION BY COLLISION" invented by Tay-Hee Hau, Korea, Jan 24, 1984

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/UpdatePage.html

This way you ABSOLUTELY minimize the current flow, yet still getting that hydrogen gas.
Now the problem is where can I buy the ceramic with the correct property My background is electronics, not much on material things.

[keithturtle]

Would then it be reasonable to suggest that, since water is the electrolyte in the cell, which is a capacitor, then when once the charge-carrying capacity of the electrolyte is exceeded, the electrolye begins to break down?  Thus, the effect is not resonance per se, but capacitor failure.   However, resonance between the inductors and the capacitor itself allows the high voltage, which in turn pushes the electrolyte beyond the physical limits of charge acceptance, and breaks it down, just like overdriving any other electrolytic capacitor.

From what I've read this seems to best describe what's really goin' on it there.

I had a 16v 5000uF cap blow up on me just last week.   Blew its guts all over the bench.

just my .02

Keith

[keithturtle]

@kentoot
"In fact we don't need any kind of frequency AT ALL to decompose water (or to break down a dielectric in general), we just need a dc electric field (dc voltage), that all, PERIOD. We don't need high current, frequency etc."

Okay, then what's to keep that voltage from arcing between the electrodes when y'all get it crankin' high enough to split water?

I think that's where the pulses come in; don't let it build enough charge (=amps)  to jump the gap.

And with resonance there's a voltage spike in the tank circuit- out of phase, but the peak is still there, with less input  emf.

I thought that's what Meyer's was after, but I ain't made it happen yet, so mebbe I'm don't get it after all.

Keith

[kentoot]

Yes Keith, I agree with you, Stan's WFC is indeed relying on capacitor 'failure' (because of overvoltage) to produce gas, just like that capacitor of yours that blew up. They were both given voltages above the dielectric strength of the electrolyte, so the electrolyte decomposes and gas is produced.
By the way, I thought usually those big caps have some sort of venting hole to prevent excessive pressure build up?

I also agree with you that the inductor-capacitor resonance may help with charging the WFC, but do they really resonate ?? I just don't know. I mean I worked before with step-up regulator, switching power supply designs that can produce high voltages, but to my knowledge they don't require the inductor and capacitor to resonate together to produce such high voltages. Maybe it's a different story in WFC case, I dont know ...

But even if there is such resonance, I still think high voltage is the one that ultimately splits the water. That's why on Stanley WFC, the water get decomposed only when the WFC reaches certain high voltage (after several pulses), it will not decompose water on every HV pulse. if one was to assume that the resonance is responsible for splitting the water then every HV pulse should decompose the water, because the resonant frequency already kicked in. 

"Okay, then what's to keep that voltage from arcing between the electrodes when y'all get it crankin' high enough to split water?"

well Keith, that's why on Tay-Hee Hau's patent the electrodes are not in contact with the water. The electrode is placed outside the water container. The water container itself is a very good isolator, so it will prevent any arc / current flow between the electrodes. But the container also need other characteristic to work, such as high dielectric constant and high dielectric strength. So it isolates the electrode, but because of the high dielectric constant, the electric field can still pass through the container to the water to decompose it. The high dielectric strength of the container (a lot higher than water) is just to make sure that the water breaks down first before the container. The dc high voltage value applied on the electrodes must be between the dielectric strength of the water and the container.

I think ceramic (not all kinds) pretty much qualify as the container.

[starcruiser]

Guys,

Well if it is a dielectric failure of the WFC, then the resonance is the sought after quantity.

Think about it, if the size of the WFC changes so does the capacitance right? So you include the inductors on either end of the WFC to create the ping pong effect of voltage and current between the coils and the WFC, the high voltages created due to the resonance effect will then cause the failure you are looking for, simple.

Now if you can match the resonance of the WFC and inductors to the NMR of the water then you should get a flash conversion, no?

The only issue here is when you convert the water to its basic components then the WFC capacitance changes hence the resonant freq changes.