New Choke Configuration. HV Water Dissassociation. (Low Power)

[Dogs]

@dutchy1966, Don't know that I'd ever get to experimenting with aluminum.
But that is an interesting idea.

I did some measurements last night.
I assembled a newly clean set of pipes into a 7 tube cell and tested both the typical choke configuration and my new proposed configuration.
The first thing that I noticed is that the cell did not seem to perform very well visually.
The actual test confirmed this:

Measuring the time to generate 1/8 liter of gas.

OUp = 100*(2.15/((volts * amps) * (rtsec*8) / 3600))

Crux choke configuration:
Enter volts: 12.2
Enter amps: 1.09
Enter rtsec: 11*60
OUp = 11.023530537743

Dogs choke configuration:
3-> calculate
Enter volts: 12.2
Enter amps: 1.2
Enter rtsec: 9*60
OUp = 12.238160291439

So currently, not anywhere near OU.
Thus, it really seems that the white coating (that is non conductive when dry) is a prerequisite to OU efficiency.
The chokes do seem to increase HHO production regardless of the white coating.
But as yet, the choke alone does not seem to be able to bring about the OU efficiency.

Looking at the pipes that seemed to produce really well, I can see that there is a white coating on the inner tube.
So, I am pretty sure that the reason why those tubes perform so well is that they are primed. I verified that they were primed by testing conductivity (31 Mega Ohms).

I found that 3 tubes had become primed out of the 4 in my 4 tube test cell. So when I started getting great production from that test cell (visually), I thought was was on to something with regard to the choke configuration.

My initial goal was achieve HV/LowAmp HHO production, without the need for primed tubes. I feel that I have exhausted my options toward that goal at this point. But, all is not lost. I have learned a lot more about the choke and the fact that the choke/water-capacitor does make an LC circuit that can resonate, thus, can achieve very High Voltage. Although it is not apparent that the  high voltage brings about HHO production with unprimed pipes, it makes sense that it may make a big difference once pipes are primed.
I have found a choke configuration that does seem to improve HHO production (event with unprimed pipes), but this requires more testing to verify that observation.
I have found that I can generate extremely high voltages within the cell. In some cases I have measured well over 1 million volts across the cell. This may be a useful datum especially for handling HHO in it's ionic/gaseous form, for full release of thermal energy (stripping off more electrons).

So now, I am curious as to how the white resistive coating improves HHO production. My meter measured the resistance at about 31 Mega Ohms.
So this coating seems to stop Voltage from passing through to the common side of the circuit. That means that more energy builds up within the capacitor substance (water) within the cell. Thus more potential energy within the cell, making it easier for it to do its work of fracturing water. A lot of voltage really does build up in the cell as described in Lawton's original experiments (D-14.pdf), weather chokes are involved or not.

An other interesting question...
Some consider that the white coating is calcuim oxide (CaO). A quick google indicates that it should be possible to directly apply such a layer (look up calcium oxide deposition). Would another element with similar resistive qualities improve HHO production performance or durability?
In this day and age of high tech chip fabrication, I am sure that this is possible and that research in this area would be very fruitful.
I have never gotten any of my tubes to get that white coating in past attempts at priming.
Not until I gave them a through washing. And, not until I started attempting HV water dissassociation with the few that finally did get some priming.
May be I had to give them a through washing after sanding them and before attempting to prime them?
May be the latest HV experimentation with the tubes helped in forming the white coating?
- ...cleaning and preping procedure...
- ...HV experimentation (no bubbles, or very little, but results in good CaO growth)...
I would definately suggest that throughly washing the tubes and them soaking them in vinegar for a few hours is a good idea before running through a priming procedure.
(Google Vidoes: calcium oxide)
I would also suggest that using Stainless Steel 304 pipes would be more advantageous than 316 as it is slightly more prone to corrosion and should form the oxide coating more easily.

So once again I have gone full circle to putting my attention back on priming my pipes.

-Dogs

[passion1]

Dogs

Very interesting and thank you for the feedback.
How and with what did you wash those tubes that ended up with the white coating?

[Farrah Day]

Happy New Year fellas!

Hi Dogs

Good stuff. I printed off just about everything you have posted on the other forum and have been reading it with great interest over the Christmas/New Year period.

My tubes started to develop the white coating after a few days while I've been playing around with straight dc experiments.  Not sure about the calcium oxide as some folks suspect though. Sure there is a good quantity of calcium in hard water areas here in the UK (I'm in one), but it's the oxide part that's niggling me.  Now my chemistry is weak, but as an oxide, it would surely form on the anode (an oxidation reaction). My white coating (and I think everyone elses too) is on the cathode, where you would expect there to be a defficiency of oxygen and hence a reduction reaction.

Whatever it is, I have always thought this to be the key to producing our true 'water capacitor', where we are not relying on the water to be dielectric, but rather the coating on the electrodes.  We at least can then work on the premise that our cell will act to a greater extent as a capacitor in much of it's behaviour.

From everything I've seen, once this coating is established and we effectively have a true dielectric in place, we then see a substantial increase in efficiency of gas production. Though, we still have to try to understand how it's properties influence ionisation/gas production.

It's not something I've ever considered or pursue, but does this mean then that acoustic resonance is perhaps unimportant?

Does it mean, as I suspected some time ago, that the water may simply be an active extension of an electrode (anode)? In which case, the cathode could be made with a much larger surface area while we only need to employ a small electrode as the anode, simply to be in contact with the water. 

Looks like the chromium oxide layer on the anode is not good enough to act as a decent dielectric as I once thought it would, but it is interesting that even my unconditioned ss tubes would hold a voltage for hours, if not overnight.

You're making some great inroads on the electronics side of the subject, but have you ever compared the gas rate production with straight dc in order to have a baseline?  I only ask as in one of your postings you had 4 tube cell drawing 0.543 amps at 12 volts when putting out 15.5Kv across the cells, but it did not look like that much gas production to me.  You may find that 12 volts at half and amp straight dc across the cell gives the same result.

The last couple of weeks have been hectic so I've not had chance to get out to my workshop, but hopefully I'll be able to remedy this in the coming days and have some results of my own to throw in.

Will be following your postings with great interest. 

[Farrah Day]

Did a bit of research.

Calcium oxide is nasty hazardous stuff, but hopefully we are producing calcium hydroxide:

Reaction of calcium with water
Calcium reacts slowly with water. This is in contrast with magnesium, immediately above calcium in the periodic table, which is virtually unreactive with cold water. The reaction forms calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2 and hydrogen gas (H2). The calcium metal sinks in water and after an hour or so bubbles of hydrogen are evident, stuck to the surface of the metal.

Ca(s) + 2H2O(g) → Ca(OH)2(aq) + H2(g)


Calcium hydroxide, also known as slaked lime, is a chemical compound with the chemical formula Ca(OH)2. It is a colourless crystal or white powder, and is obtained when calcium oxide (called lime or quicklime) is mixed, or "slaked" with water. It can also be precipitated by mixing an aqueous solution of calcium chloride and an aqueous solution of sodium hydroxide. A traditional name for calcium hydroxide is slaked lime, or hydrated lime. The name of the natural mineral is portlandite.

If heated to 512?C,[1] calcium hydroxide decomposes into calcium oxide and water. A suspension of fine calcium hydroxide particles in water is called milk of lime. The solution is called lime water and is a medium strength base that reacts violently with acids and attacks many metals in presence of water. It turns milky if carbon dioxide is passed through, due to precipitation of calcium carbonate.

Surely then, it would be quite possible for us to dope some water with an appropriate calcium compound in order to greatly enhance the efficiency at which the coating is developed on the cathode.  I think it is calcium carbonate (limestone) in our drinking water.

One thing on my mind now:  Are the properties of the dielectric compound formed on the cathode crucial to the operation of our wfc's and the related electronics?

If so why?  Is it the fact that this layer simply creates a very high impedance to current flow or is it needed to continually break down to create ionisation?

I had expected the protective chromium oxide layer on the ss anode to be continually breaking down and reforming, but now I'm not sure this is any longer relevant as focus now seems to be on the cathode.  However, the layer on the cathode seems so much more substantial and takes so much longer to achieve that I'm not sure this would self-heal as would the ss chromium oxide layer - or indeed as would the aluminium oxide layer that protects aluminium.

Dogs, measured 30Mohm - a substantial resistance - across this coating, though this figure would depend on the distance between the probes and hence the layer thickness.  All very interesting, because if the dielectric is not at some point breaking down, how is ionisation being achieved?

Furthermore, (and I need to confirm this with my own tests) I have read that simply coating the electrodes with an insulating material, such as clingfilm, does not produce any gas at all.

[oystla]

Hi

Interesting stuff,

But Dogs;

About your measurement;

"
Dogs choke configuration:
3-> calculate
Enter volts: 12.2
Enter amps: 1.2
Enter rtsec: 9*60
OUp = 12.238160291439
"

So you produced 0,125 liter at 12,2 volts, 1,2 amps in 9*60 =540 seconds ?

Yes, then the efficiency of your cell is 12,24 %, which is not very good.

I made this formula using higher heating value of hydrogen and ideal gas law and daltons law;

Efficiency (%)= 7744*100*V/(U*i*t) where

V= collected H2/O2 gas (liter)
U= Voltage
i= amperage
t= test time in seconds


By the way;
Yes water around the world differs a lot from "hard" to "soft", so we should really investigate what the white powder is, so we know what water we need for conditioning. What about sending it to an laboratory for an analysis? shouldn't cost much I believe... ?

regards from Norway