Magnetic Permeability ... I can't find anyone talking about this !!!!!

[SkyWatcher123]

Hi folks, Hi Observer, I just noticed your thread and agree that as Joseph Newman and Robert Adams also realized that the energy for the magnetic field comes from the material itself and the input is only a catalyst to release some of the energy within copper, iron, etc. I had started a thread at the other forum similar to what your pointing out and here is a graph from Joseph Newman's book. So if this applies to copper then it surely applies just as well to iron atoms when the two are joined.
peace love light

[The Observer]

Sudo,

A Newbie who's first words include "no free lunch".      hmm

       Then Gibberish such as this.

When you place an iron core in a coil, you increase the physical space contained within the coil,

           You either miss the point that a piece of iron has zillions of rotatable magnetic dipoles...
                                                                            or
                            you are an infiltrator who's purpose is to confuse and misdirect.

Either way...
                 I ask you have some knowledge of what you speak of, before commenting in this thread.

                           The subject is Magnetic Permeability and the fact the most material's
                                       value is around 1 while Ferros are from 1000  to 1,000,000.

                                                     which relates to these subjects as well...
                    Magnetic Domains, Anisotropic Energy, Block Walls and Magnetic Coercitivity.
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SkyWatcher,

You said...

Joseph Newman and Robert Adams also realized that the energy for the magnetic field comes from the material itself

       Thankyou... Thankyou... Thankyou.
                                                                        I so appreciate someone else besides me saying this.

Now I don't make any claims about copper and other materials that have a Magnetic Permeability near 1.
         Meaning, they don't amplify or resist (diamagnetic)...  Magnetic fields much... hense the number 1.

But... FERROMAGNETIC MATERIALS do amplify Magnetic Fields by factors of 1000 to 1 Million !!!!
         hense the number 1 Million !

Key Points Include...

            1. Unpaired electrons in Ferros are mini coils that produce a magnetic field.
            2. These "coils" (aka magnetic dipoles)  rotate... some easy, some hard (Magnetic Coercitivity)
            3. Iron has a large magnetic field not observable until another magnetic field reveals it (Magnetic Domains/Block Walls)
            4. Dipoles align when Newton says they shouldn't. (Anisotropic Energy)<--- Unexpected Quantum Effect

Or simply.. When you take 1 billion randomly orientated magnets and get them pointing all in the same direction,
                      the result is a very large magnetic field not previously observable.
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Look for a diagram in the near future explaining this.

Non-Linear Systems Rule,
                                             The Observer

[broli]

Steorn has made my thoughts divert a bit into this thread.

I believe you are correct, there is no free lunch it went beyond that...there's a mountain of food instead, if you don't see it you are blind.

For the ease of a thought experimentation. Imagine having a super conducting coil which is shorted and has a 10 amps current going through it. It will have a certain amount of magnetic energy stored according to this formula E=0.5*L*I^2. Now we ask ourselves what happens if we slowly approach this coil with a cylindrical ferromagnetic material. We will see two things happen at the same time. The flux will rise from the point of view from the coil as more and more iron dipoles are being orientated. BUT at the same time the inductance is also rising at the same rate! For instance if the flux was rising by 1 webers/second the inductance would be rising by 1 henries/second.

So what is happening to the current and core during this period??? As the core is being attracted closer to the center of the coil more flux is being made, but also more inductance is made since you are effectively changing the permeability.  So could it be possible that these two changes cancel out so that the current remains equal? But wait if that's so then we just increased the magnetic energy for free. Oke maybe the current falls down so that the magnetic energy stored remains constant since L increased. This means if we dump this energy instantly in a capacitor it would receive all the starting energy.

That's more reasonable. But wait a second......after we dumped all the energy into a capacitor. Why does the iron core have a net kinetic energy OMG this system completly ignored the mechanical work it has been doing by attracting the core closer by itself. 

People will probably not understand this reasoning as they are not used to changing flux and permeability at the same time. There are some things that I still have to figure out though.

[The Observer]

Broli,
Thanks for your comment.

You Brilliantly Stated...

there is no free lunch it went beyond that...
                                                there's a mountain of food instead,
                                                                                            if you don't see it you are blind.

I also like your experiment involving...  moving a piece of iron into the static field of an energized coil.
                                                                   
          This is essentially the same as putting a piece of iron next to a magnet.
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As promised, I created a rough diagram to help explain Magnetic Permeability.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
                       The Observer

[Kator01]

Hi all.

look here fo the basics and read it to the end of the page :

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

escpecially here the paragraph about the "long range order"
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

Last sentence :
"This statement has exceptions and limits, since you do reach a saturation magnetization of the iron core quickly, as illustrated in the discussion of hysteresis."

Hysteresis ;:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

Once the magnetic domains are reoriented, it takes some energy to turn them back again

Now can this be the reason why the new MEG-Design operates beyond the maximum of permeabilty and let the permanent magnet do the work of bringing the magnetic alignement back ? ( not to zero but swinging between the
left and the right side of the permeability peak ?

post #149 :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4300.135 picture  INKOMP_possible_explanation.jpg


We are entering here the area of the magentic amplifier ( transductor-technique)

You use a diode to feed the primary and saturate the core ( saturable reactor)
Regards

Kator