Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

[Honk]

Hi all and thank's ACP for your help last time.

I have another question.

If I want to wind a electromagnetic coil with an soft iron core that gives 1 Tesla
at a certain voltage how do I calculate the number of turns needed?

[gyulasun]

....If I want to wind a electromagnetic coil with an soft iron core that gives 1 Tesla
at a certain voltage how do I calculate the number of turns needed?

Hi Honk,

There is a formula here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/elemag.html#c5  but it includes a 'misprint' I think. Correct formula is B=u*n*I  where u=k*u_o and k=relative permeability of your core and u_o=4*pi*10^-7

You may find the normal solenoid formula here where it seems correct:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/solenoid.html#c3  and you may find the meanings of n too.

Regarding the wire diameter it is dictated by the current it is needed to carry, the space it occupies or how much room is available for the coil, surely a trade off between space and copper loss.

Regards
Gyula

[gyulasun]

I do understand this. My point is that the same effect is achieved with a block of iron replacing the magnet( at least in the sims). ?

Hi Albert,

Would you consider your simulation picture #3 in your Reply#295 (February 6, 2007, 07:26:13), you received 1990 Newton attractive force.
Now let's agree that in your simulation the effective cross section area of the iron sleeve (which constitutes the core of the electromagnet) is a definite number, let's call it as 'A' , ok? And consider this 'A' as the resultant or effective area which actually is present with its given permeability inside the coil. I guess you can easily figure out the actual value of 'A' to get, say for instance, 5.6cm² but now for this talk the exact value the simulation dealt with is not important.

Now if you insert a block of iron into the empty part of the previous sleeve you have just increased manyfold the original 'A' effective cross section area of the sleeve and this is the ONLY explanation why you got 3000 Newton force in your picture #2!!!

Can you agree with this?  Because this is the point where you let yourself in, I think.

This is why I do not bother that your block of iron 'does the same job' as the permanent magnet, for it DOES IT WITH AN HIGHER CROSS SECTION AREA WHICH DOES COUNT IN THE RESULTANT FORCE OF AN ELECTROMAGNET!

And please include a picture #4 where you simulated the force in the same setup as in pictures 1-3 but there is no 8W input and the permanent magnet is included: this is the 3rd time I kindly ask you for this.

Regards

Gyula

[Ergo]

I do understand this. My point is that the same effect is achieved with a block of iron replacing the magnet( at least in the sims). ?

Now if you insert a block of iron into the empty part of the previous sleeve you have just increased manyfold the original 'A' effective cross section area of the sleeve and this is the ONLY explanation why you got 3000 Newton force in your picture #2!!!

This is why I do not bother that your block of iron 'does the same job' as the permanent magnet, for it DOES IT WITH AN HIGHER CROSS SECTION AREA WHICH DOES COUNT IN THE RESULTANT FORCE OF AN ELECTROMAGNET!

Regards
Gyula

Albert got it right.

If replacing the magnet with a pice of iron in the real world, not FEMM, and the output
is the same as when using a magnet, then we can kiss Over Unity goodbye.
Because the iron magnet valve will have the same size properties as the one with
a magnet, and this tells us that we don't get extra energy from the magnet.
And if we don't get any extra energy then we can ditch this motor as the holy graal.

End of discussion.....

Unless we can test the valve in real world with a piece of iron replacing the magnet. Then we can see if there is any difference or not.
It's all about being able to make use of the energy from the magnet. No matter what.
If an electro magnet at the same size and shape as the magnetic valve gives the same output power then there is no way we get a self runner.

----------------------------------------------------
Bye the way, I'm a believer in Jacks motor and valve.
----------------------------------------------------

[acp]

this is the 3rd time I kindly ask you for this.

Hi Gyula, have a look at pic 3 on reply 278.


So is Jacks valve better than when the magnet is replaced with iron? Why is it better or more efficient? can you tell me that?
You say yourself that increasing the cross sectional area of the core increases the resultant force. So you have to sacrifice cross sectional area to make room for Jacks magnet.


The case as I see it is that you always have to sacrifice some cross sectional area of an electromagnet to fit in a magnet to turn it into Jacks valve. If the insertion of the magnet doesn't result in an increase of force, then it is pointless. just leave it as an electromagnet.
I'm not trying to bug you, I truly want to see a difference but unfortunately I don't.

regards

Albert