Joule Thief 101

[tinman]

 author=EMJunkie link=topic=8341.msg480096#msg480096 date=1460266545]




   Chris Sykes

But the other is measuring Current. Which is not the EMF of the Source.

That is correct. But the EMF of the source is in phase with the current.
See scope shot below,where we are measuring both source current and EMF across the source--they are in phase.CH1 is current through the source,and channel 2 is the EMF across the source.
Remember-low frequency,and open secondary.

Dont agree entirely here, this is dependant on the Passive Inductance's and or Capacitance's present, or Purely Resistive, Load characteristics in the circuit.

Yes,all that matters,and must be taken into account. But remember,we are discussing the answers provided in regards to the schematic posted with the associated scope shot.

It is not only possible, but common to see Voltage and Current in Phase, or very close to it on the Terminals of a "Generator" - Again this depends on the Load. It is also possible to see a Phase Shift of 90 Degrees as you have shown.

Yes it is,but if there is no load on the output,then there is no current. If there is no current,then the EMF on the output will be determined by the rate of change of magnetic flux through the coil-we are assuming normal operating frequencies of the generator here.
I am happy to build up a small generator,and show you if you like.

The issue is, Faradays Law of Electromagnetic Induction, by definition, predicts EMF, The E.M.F and B are Two different things.

That is correct. But as in my schematic and associated scope shot,the rate of change in the increase and decrease of B around L1 is what determines the EMF value across L2. The EMF value across L2 is greatest when the rate of change of B is at it's greatest,and that point on the scope shot is when the current trace is passing through the 0 volt line-not the peak current points.

So no Sir, I dont agree.

I can tell you,that in regards to the generator,there will be 0 volt's(no EMF) across the output of the generator when the core of the generator coil is receiving maximum flux coupling from the PM-the magnet is directly lined up with the core of the output coil. This is the point of no rate of change between an increasing or decreasing magnetic flux through the output coil.

As it stands, the equation for Faradays Law of Electromagnetic Induction (E.M.F = -N dϕ_B/dt), does not, at all, predict a Phase Shift of 90 Degrees between E.M.F (measured in Voltage) and the Magnetic Field (ϕ_B) or any other angle as a mater of fact between these two quantitys E.M.F (measured in Voltage) and Magnetic Field (ϕ_B)!

It dose when the secondary is open,and no current is flowing through it-as in my posted schematic,and we are confined to the parameters of the test,where normal low operating frequencies were used that are close to what the transformer was designed for.
Of course different transformer configurations,and higher frequencies will show varying result's as far as phase alignment go's between the primary and secondary EMF.

Faradays Law of Electromagnetic Induction does predict a Phase Shift of 180 Degrees, thanks to Heinrick Lenz, from the Source E.M.F and the Destination E.M.F

You need to specify the type of transformer,as this is not always the case-even at low frequencies.
The transformer i am using in my experiments at the moment,is an air core transformer with a winding ratio of about 50:1. I have a 5ohm resistive load on the secondary.
The second scope shot below shows the EMF across both the primary and secondary-where the blue trace is the primary EMF,and the yellow trace is the secondary EMF. The secondaries EMF is close to 90* out of phase in relation to the primaries EMF,not 180*. As you can see on the scope shot,the frequency is very low.

Please compare the equations, they are not even close to the same!!!
TK was wrong and should Correct himself!!!

Chris
TK was correct in what he described,where he said-Quote:
Brad, your scope shot shows the expected 90 degree phase difference as predicted by Faraday's Law: The induced (negative) EMF in the second coil is proportional to the _time rate of change_ of the inducing magnetic field from the first coil.

That statement is absolutely correct in regards to the schematic,probe placements,and scope shot i provided.
The peak EMF produced across L2 is when the magnetic field produced around L1 is at it's greatest rate of change--not at it's maximum amplitude. The point of no change of the magnetic field around L1,is when the current is at it's peak,meaning that the magnetic field produced by L1 has also reached it peak amplitude. As the magnetic field is no longer changing in amplitude,the induced EMF across L2 will be zero-see scope shot 3 below.


Brad

[EMJunkie]

EMJ,


Don't be offended......


What can you do with what you are presenting?  It would be awesome if you not refer me to your partnered coil work.  What you are suggesting is beyond that, I know this for a fact. This is fast turning into a new debate and that sir is absolutely unnecessary.


So again, what are you prepared to demonstrate in support of your position?  Are you in the position to demonstrate anything?  I would love to see this information put to practical use.




Regards

Hey E - Look this is a really good question!

We have had dialogs before, where we crossed paths for a very good reason.

Some points:
   1: Virtually everyone here has either very little to no idea on How Electrical Energy is "Generated"! - I have given you all HARD DATA, real Science with References!

   2: Most everyone here has been off wildly looking for Fantasy Science that has nothing to do with real Science, fake stuff like: Cold Electricity or Cold Current's, Radiant Energy, the list goes wildly on into the wilderness of false hope and failure. - I have given some guidance, it is really YOU that needs to take the steering Wheel of Life and do it for yourselves!!!

   3: A real world, with demonstrations, with more real referencable data, several verifications, of working technology - NO ONE HERE HAS EVER HAD THAT!!!!!!!!! I have! Anti-Lenz effect

And to be honest thats more than anyone else has ever presented. All I have already shown to you all.

Others have shown what I have said, for so long, to be real, and that speakes Volumes!!! More than me showing you my demonstrations, its others showing you their demonstrations after following the layouts I have shared!!! You see, this is undeniable! Its independant Verification!!!

You see, for many decades, you, the people, have had thousands of demonstrations given to you. All with Secrets, mysterious false guidances, like "Permanent Magnet Conditioning", "Earth Currents" and more BS than anyone has ever been able to verify, ever!!!

See, what I have given to everyone, is real, it is completely explained by Real Science, through all the Real Verifiable Laws of Science...

I have given you so much more than you can ever imagine...

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


P.S: It is "Take it or Leave it", I have no problem at all either way. Either people will pick this up and learn, or they will not, the choice really is yours.

What is it that You have to Offer?

[EMJunkie]

author=EMJunkie link=topic=8341.msg480096#msg480096 date=1460266545]




   Chris Sykes


That is correct. But the EMF of the source is in phase with the current.
See scope shot below,where we are measuring both source current and EMF across the source--they are in phase.CH1 is current through the source,and channel 2 is the EMF across the source.
Remember-low frequency,and open secondary.

Yes,all that matters,and must be taken into account. But remember,we are discussing the answers provided in regards to the schematic posted with the associated scope shot.

Yes it is,but if there is no load on the output,then there is no current. If there is no current,then the EMF on the output will be determined by the rate of change of magnetic flux through the coil-we are assuming normal operating frequencies of the generator here.
I am happy to build up a small generator,and show you if you like.

That is correct. But as in my schematic and associated scope shot,the rate of change in the increase and decrease of B around L1 is what determines the EMF value across L2. The EMF value across L2 is greatest when the rate of change of B is at it's greatest,and that point on the scope shot is when the current trace is passing through the 0 volt line-not the peak current points.

I can tell you,that in regards to the generator,there will be 0 volt's(no EMF) across the output of the generator when the core of the generator coil is receiving maximum flux coupling from the PM-the magnet is directly lined up with the core of the output coil. This is the point of no rate of change between an increasing or decreasing magnetic flux through the output coil.

It dose when the secondary is open,and no current is flowing through it-as in my posted schematic,and we are confined to the parameters of the test,where normal low operating frequencies were used that are close to what the transformer was designed for.
Of course different transformer configurations,and higher frequencies will show varying result's as far as phase alignment go's between the primary and secondary EMF.

You need to specify the type of transformer,as this is not always the case-even at low frequencies.
The transformer i am using in my experiments at the moment,is an air core transformer with a winding ratio of about 50:1. I have a 5ohm resistive load on the secondary.
The second scope shot below shows the EMF across both the primary and secondary-where the blue trace is the primary EMF,and the yellow trace is the secondary EMF. The secondaries EMF is close to 90* out of phase in relation to the primaries EMF,not 180*. As you can see on the scope shot,the frequency is very low.

Chris
TK was correct in what he described,where he said-Quote:
Brad, your scope shot shows the expected 90 degree phase difference as predicted by Faraday's Law: The induced (negative) EMF in the second coil is proportional to the _time rate of change_ of the inducing magnetic field from the first coil.

That statement is absolutely correct in regards to the schematic,probe placements,and scope shot i provided.
The peak EMF produced across L2 is when the magnetic field produced around L1 is at it's greatest rate of change--not at it's maximum amplitude. The point of no change of the magnetic field around L1,is when the current is at it's peak,meaning that the magnetic field produced by L1 has also reached it peak amplitude. As the magnetic field is no longer changing in amplitude,the induced EMF across L2 will be zero-see scope shot 3 below.


Brad

I am sorry Brad, reading your first paragraph, this is not always the case! You know it. I have read the whole lot, to show respect.

Brad, you believe what you want, in the end, this will catch up with you and you will see the truth!

You have an old washing machine motor there, Spin it Up and test and verify the phase relationships with different Passive Components...

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

[tinman]

I am sorry Brad, reading your first paragraph, this is not always the case! You know it. I have read the whole lot, to show respect.

Brad, you believe what you want, in the end, this will catch up with you and you will see the truth!

You have an old washing machine motor there, Spin it Up and test and verify the phase relationships with different Passive Components...

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Chris

All i say is in relation only to the test setup i supplied--that is what we are talking about here--nothing else.

As i said,there are many variables that can change thing's--see next post and video.



Brad

[tinman]

Here is a video showing the effects of an oscillating magnetic field against transformer action.
How dose the oscillating magnet allow so much more power dissipation,while reducing the power to the source that drives the oscillating system.

Comments and thoughts welcome from all.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlb79xSh93w

Brad