most promising water split

[CrazyEwok]

Interesting idea... as with others this is a path lots of people were already going down but there are considerable hurdles...

[pese]

i found this very old paper CRE Brown / Rodrigez.
I add this here that it get not lost  :-)  Pese
-------------------------------------- (i know that is the wrong tread
because that ist Brown-Rodrigez Gaz , but its HHO and iinteressantly.


Charge Recycle Electrolyzer or CRE

This is the official and only public documentation on CRE. Information appearing on other web sites or in news groups may be WRONG and in violation of our Copy Rights. CRE development specifications and production outputs ONLY appear in this paper. Specifications, designs or statements taken either in or out of the context of this paper and reprinted are in violation of US Copy Rights.

Before explaining what CRE is and how it works, it is of interest to cover some of the history leading up to its development.

Back in 1995-1996 we looked into the production of fuel hydrogen using standard configuration plated electrolyzer cells. It was not until the middle of 1996 that we devoted considerable research time to exploring how one might produce on demand hydrogen. The initial research looked at what is sometimes called Rhodes(a) gas, Browns(b) gas or HydroOxy (also known as Oxy-Hydrogen) gas, which is a very dangerous mixture of hydrogen and oxygen produced by non-separation electrolyzer cells. (Dr. Rhodes(a) and Prof. Yull Brown(b) have both made statements the gas is less dangerous than tank H2 and O2 when combined. We do not dispute their claims, although our experience, possibly do to our errors, indicates otherwise.)

Additionally we performed a number of experiments with a somewhat controversial Pulsed Power cell arrangement using a low voltage pulsed power supply. The pulsed power method we are referring to is attributed to a Stanley Meyer (somewhat controversial individual, see Internet for further information) that developed a circuit using high voltage pulsed power.

*Another arm of this research is into ECE or External Charge Excitation. The ECE paper is far from complete, although some photos and basic titles can be found here.

Not wanting to fully duplicate the work of Meyer we constructed a switching (pulsed) power supply running at 12 volts DC that was switched into a two plate electrolyzer cell. The switching rate was adjustable and the circuit itself was a rather simple circuit overall. Initial testing did not produce surprising or unexpected results. The cells action and output performed as expected and calculated.

A number of experiments were conducted with resonant circuits (both parallel and series) in the cells return power leg (anode).  A number of configurations were tested before even the slightest indication of something different was observed. A slight oscillation in the circuit and a visible increase (although small) in gas production, without having increased input was the first indication of something different in a particular test run. This particular circuit had a feedback path from the resonant components back to the cathode side of the cell.

Many hours were expended under the mistaken assumption that this oscillation was in some way tied into some frequency component of the molecular bonds of H2O itself, which was helping in the disassociation. Only through a mistake in misreading a capacitor value did we realize that the observed action was not a result of a frequency connection to the molecules themselves. The incorrect selection of a capacitor shifted the frequency of interest by many orders of magnitude lower

Gas production was increased significantly while maintaining the same input to the cell. Something was taking place in this particular circuit that indicated a generation efficiency of over 100%, but appeared to be outside of any direct molecular interaction..

We constructed a large cell, one that would allow for a large volume of gas so that exact output measurements could be performed and appropriate calculations made.

Because of a mistake in staying with the Rhodes(a) gas mixture we set the stage for what was to be a near tragic yet avoidable accident. Stating again that the Rhodes(a) gas, an evolved combination of Hydrogen and Oxygen in our opinion is extremely dangerous and should be avoided without exception. (This gas mixture and its apparent dangers arise from the storage of the gas, rather than the generation and real time usage of the gas.)

We were able to improve upon the design when one day while storing close to a liter of this highly volatile mixture, it happened. Some how the mixture became catalyzed and Bang!. The entire cell was blown apart with the lid and hose fixtures imbedding into the soft lab ceiling. Pieces of the cell were found some 10 meters away from where the explosion took place. The hose fitting on the lid to the cell pushed one half inch into the ceiling tile. Further testing was stopped while consideration was given to the hazards involved in this type of research being conducted in a general research lab.

In mid 2004 after reading numerous articles on the direction alternate energy production was taking, we again decide to resume research into real time fuel hydrogen production. This time we chose to use separation cells and implement strict production, storage and handling guidelines.

Our goal was to be able to produce hydrogen on a real time demand basis with equipment easily obtainable and assembled while using common tap water as the H20 source. See Wonder of Hydrogen

We began with a common or standard cell design composed of anode and cathode electrodes (carbon) without membrane separation, yet fully separating the H2 from the O2. Pressure adjustments and balancing were not of initial concern. Once establishing a base line for comparative measurements we looked into the design of the electrodes and what if any impact different geometry had on overall production efficiency. See Electrodes

Initial research results were text book, output was without a doubt a function of input, even though we did see some minor changes in production efficiencies from different electrode designs.

The early circuit , contained a resonant circuit, a few capacitors and some high speed switching diodes. Scope traces and pulse timing measurements indicated that the resonant circuit was not a contributor to the process owing to its resonance. Rather it was acting as a time delay for pulses being reapplied to the input of the cell. Once this was understood a conceptual picture of the CRE began to form.

When reading this paper, one must keep in mind that for proper disassociation of H2 and O2 through electrolysis that the electron conduction is ionic, not resistive. This fact is significant in the understanding and operation of the CRE. The CRE supplies electrode voltages of from 2 volts to 4 volts, depending on the composition of the water being used for the electrolyte. The more conductive the water the higher the applied electrode voltage will be. The voltage is adjustable so when required the applied electrode level can be reduced.

Let's offer a crude yet explanatory mind picture of just what the CRE is. Picture a fire brigade of men and buckets with a central supply of water some distance away from a particular fire (no they don't use water tanks). To fight the fire each man runs to the water supply, fills his bucket, runs back to the fire and disperses the water over the fire. The man must then run back to the water supply for the next bucket of water. In this round trip process each man expends X amount of energy for each bucket of water used on the fire.

One day a rather tired fire fighter noted that not all of the water thrown onto a fire was evaporated from the fires heat and that some of the water ran off and pooled in a ditch a few feet from the fire. The fire fighter reasoned that one bucket of water was just as good as the next so he saved the long run to the supply pool and drew his buckets from the closer source the ditch, thereby recycling some of the water while expending less energy from his tired body. To the fire, one bucket of water seemed like the next and performed the same function of heat removal. When the fire was finally out, our industrious fire fighter that took water from the ditch used X' energy during the event, while the rest of the fire fighters used X energy. The fire fighter energy saved by recycling some of the water would therefore be ( X - X' )

What is important here is the fire fighter was recycling water and saving energy he would have otherwise used if all of the water had to come from the supply pond. It should be easy to see the increase in efficiency from this process.

So how does this apply to the CRE? Simple, the water is replaced by electrons from the power supply source to the electrolyzer and the CRE is the smart fire fighter that uses some of those electrons over in the process of the disassociation of the H2 and O2 from the cell. As far as the power source is concerned it cares less how many times a particular electron is used before being returned to it. Neither does the power source care how long it really takes (within limits) a particular electron to travel from the cathode back to the anode, provided it does return.

We may need to clear up a possible connection between energy and efficiency that could lead to a misunderstanding. Assume a standard two plate electrolyzer cell that is capable of producing 1 liter of H2 per hour with an electrical input of ( Xb Joules) at an efficiency of  80%. This same cell under the control of a CRE controller could easily produce 1.8 liters per hour with the same input of (Xb Joules). The additional energy is being supplied by the CRE controller in recycling electrons back through the cell. The cell efficiency has crossed the magic 100% barrier because we are now disassociating additional gas over and above that which would be produced by the source (Xb Joules) alone.

The increased production cannot exceed 200%, limited by the design of CRE. Current test CRE's run comfortably around 80% to 91% over source input. A modified CRE is in the early stages of testing for use with solar cells as the supply source because a standard CRE disconnects the input supply 50% of the time. With solar cells disconnecting them for 50% of the time would make the CRE ineffective, as energy would be lost during the time they are not supplying current.

Consider the following two reactions that take place at the cell electrodes.

Cathode:      2(H2O) + 2e-  => H2(g) + 2OH-
Anode:         2OH- => : H2O + 2e- + 1/2 O2(g)

The two electrons come from the cells power source entering the cathode and exiting the anode through ionic conduction. Once entering the + supply side of the power source, the electrons are gone, used up and become part of the total power used by the cell. But with CRE these two electrons are captured and fed back through the cell a second time, thereby producing twice the evolved gas from the same energy input.

The CRE is NOT an Over Unity Device nor does it operate under a Perpetual Motion concept . CRE is not pulling energy from any source other than the primary supply to the cell. In all its simplicity the CRE is a recycler of electrons and does not violate thermodynamics in the application of an electrolyzer used to disassociate H2 and O2 gasses from H2O. The CRE will not work for recycling when used in a resistive or ohmic circuit (if the electrode voltages exceed ~4 volts), it only works when ionic conduction is being supplemented.

The switching circuits in the CRE use energy supplied by the cell source, which lowers output by from 10%-20%, although new designs using MosFETs and Opto Switches can limit this loss to below 20%. Current test CRE's are using a switch controlled by a MOS 555 adjustable timer and allows a maximum of 191% effectiveness from the cell. In a production cell we feel the effectiveness will be in the range of 170% to 180% in order to keep circuit complexity and module cost low.

The CRE will work on conventional and PEM cells although with the PEMs a 2W cell remains a 2W cell because its production limitations are more or less built into the cell itself. Although you would with the CRE be able to max out the PEM production limit with less input power than is normally be required.

We performed extensive Internet searches for devices that resemble the CRE, along with a basic patent search and found only one device even close. A Charge Shuttling circuit is used to equalize the charge between battery cells of certain multi-cell batteries. If a CRE similar device exists we have yet to find it and wonder why it is not being used if it does exist.

Here is a pseudo diagram of the CRE circuit?


One of the early electrolyzers.

The following is an actual picture of a working 10W CRE. Sorry but some parts have been covered.

One very important fact about the CRE must be mentioned. Because of how the CRE works and the components it uses, it is currently not practical to consider using CRE's for electrolyzers much over 1kW. Although any number of CRE modules can run side by side controlling an unlimited number of 1kW or less cell farms. This specific limitation results from weight, space and the cost of switching high amperage circuits. Moving into circuit design where power FET transistors and optical switches are used would allow for control of greater than 1kW, although the circuit complexity increase by an order of magnitude.

To illustrate what a CRE looks like in operation we set up a simple demonstration with two carbon electrodes in a lab beaker, driven by a CRE. As you will see in the video this is not a separation cell and it is so simple it is releasing all gases into the air. What is important is looking at the cathode or H2 electrode on the left side of the picture. You will observe bursts of gas as the CRE pulses. Each alternate burst is charge recycled during the preceding power cycle. Remember that CRE disconnects the power source from the cell for 50% of the time. The remaining time, recycled charge is flowing through the electrolyte.

This video is MPEG and 600k in size.


A new electrolyzer before going through 48 hours of vacuum testing. This electrolyzer operates at 1.4 psig during operational tests. It is not necessary to operate above this pressure when operational testing is underway. The cell is driven with a 10W CRE. The cell is designed for easy interchange of electrodes, therby allowing for different shapes and sizes. Pressures on the H2 cell are measured with a manometer built within the lab which allows measurements down to 0.003psi.

The following pictures are of the bubblers, scrubbers (or dryers) and flame traps (flame arrestors). We use three types of flame arrestors, bubblers, water filled U tubes and silicate sand supported by screens and fiberglass cloth. The following is a picture of a completed silicate sand arrestor .

H2 capture and pressure tank in leak testing

The electrolyzer generator cells used for laboratory testing

Checking how the system fits together

Full Unit Test, All Ready to go

First Complete Test a Success (1)

First Complete Test a Succes (2)

Dryer and Flame arrestor


We use different arrestors in different locations in the hydrogen path of the electrolyzer depending on the gas pressure and line tubing lengths prior to the usage of the arrestor. If we are to extract the gas for use or analysis, the silicate sand arrestor is located just at the gas exit point.

We are asked repeatedly if CRE means free energy and our answer is categorically NO. Hopefully the following short explanation will clear this question once and for all.

Lets look at a hypothetical case where utility electricity costs $1.00 per kilowatt-hour and your current electrolyzer uses 10 kilowatts on a 24/7 basis. Therefore you are currently paying ($1.00 X 10 X 24 = $240.00) per day for your utility electricity. With a CRE unit running at 200% (theoretical maximum, in reality not obtainable) your daily cost would be cut in half to $120.00. Your cost was significantly reduced but not eliminated, no free energy.

Having hydrogen at half the cost still presents numerous problems, especially for the domestic user, just how will this cheaper hydrogen be used? Feeding hydrogen back into a fuel cell to obtain electricity back, makes little sense, you end up paying more overall than just using the utility electricity and forgetting the hydrogen. One has to factor in the cost of the electrolyzer, the cost of the fuel cell, the water and all the maintenance that would be required. Currently fuel cells just are not efficient enough to make this a working configuration.

Using alternate electrical sources other than utility, like solar or wind does indeed offer alternatives that can be very attractive. Even with the high cost of solar generation, the equipment payoff over time appears to be favorable especially with the belief that solar panels will reduce in cost per watt in the next decade. Wind generation of electrolyzer electricity can be very attractive, yet one must carefully balance out why hydrogen is being produced rather than use the wind generated electricity directly. In the majority of domestic installations, electricity is the desired end product.

Currently we feel the best utilization of hydrogen generated with the aid of CRE would be as a fuel source for a gas generation system. Minimal changes would be required to existing systems to allow the usage of hydrogen as a fuel and the modifications to existing electrical systems would required only the addition of a switch box and fuse system to interface to a generator. Maintenance costs would be a factor and the system would in most case run 24/7, although properly installed the utility grid could still be left available as a backup or peak smoother. With fuel cost ever on the increase, this configuration is becoming viable as a working system.

*As this paper expands, certain sections may appear out of context because information is being added from prior recorded information containe in other media. Additionally new information is added as current work and experiments continue. From this point forward in this paper we will only provide links to images and long data runs. This is being done to aid those viewers forced to use slower connections to the internet.



References:

(a)Dr. William A. Rodes.
(b)Prof. Yull Brown




Copyright © 2003-2004 Telos Research. All rights reserved.
Revised: December 02, 2004



------------------------
Attention. Collection of OU / FE links here

http://gpese.stormloader.com/OU/

[wojwrobel]

hello

Pese i think if you want to do electrolysis efficiently the best way is to do as Shigeta Hasebe's did in patent 4,105,528 he or she claims 20 times Faraday with help of permanent magnets and high speed water pump for details see patent


another thing is I'm looking for some more info about H20 molecule electron behavior , because understanding the water molecule ,how it behave will help

as far as i know:
-Hydrogen configuration is 1s1
-Oxygen configuration is 1s2 2s2 2p4

can someone explain this?

cut from some chemist sites

"Hybridisation occurs in which the 2s orbital and the three 2p orbitals form four new orbitals called sp3 hybrid orbitals. Two of these contain 2 electrons each (lone pairs or non-bonded pairs) while the other two each contain 1 electron (1/2 filled bonding orbitals)"
"These bond with two hydrogen atoms to form the water molecule. The shape of the molecule is described as non-linear or bent with an angle for HOH of 105o. The shape of molecules is determined by repulsions between electrons around the central atom. Repulsion is greatest between two non-bonded (lone) pairs, intermediate between a non-bonded pair and a bonded pair, and weakest between two bonded pairs."

maybe somebody have a link to h2o molecule animation with electron orbitals? or some

anyway i will keep searching

wojsciech

[TechStuf]

Consider what the following have in common:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw


Interestingly enough, these are a demonstration of a form of 'vacuum' energy.


Yet, notice the rudimentary nature of the above examples, and the vast amount of room for improvement.



TS

[forest]

The mystery with water continues ...all other salts from the same group are GASES at normal conditions. Check it