Relative Permittivity of Water

[Torana]

(I wasnt going to mention this because of the AC testing involved )

I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANY ONE PERFORM THESE TESTS, IF YOU DO, IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK
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Theres another major problem with the water "capacitor" and thats capacitive reactance.

Xc = 1  / (2 * pi * f * C )  , frequency dependent formula

A simple test using 230 V AC 50 hz will reveal if there is Reactance or Resistance involved = Brute force test.
Theoretical C = 2.27 nano farad , single "capacitor" test
Predicted Xc  = 1 / ( 2 x pi x 50 x .000 000 002 27 )
@ 50 hz        = 1,402,246 ohm
@ 60 hz        = 1,168,538 ohm
these figures would hold IF it was functioning as a Capacitor.

IF anyone were to do the test using phase and neutral ,theyll find the water boils in 6 seconds.

An alternative test is to use a diode or fullwave bridge rectifier ,which will give a 50 hz 1/2 wave pulse or 100 hz fullwave pulse ,depending on which is used.

The result is that it RAPIDLY pours Hydrogen for a few seconds before it too boils at 6 seconds.
V = 210 VDC , 5 amp .
How well does the Dielectric strength hold up ??

The next monster to raise its ugly head is Impedance
Z = square root of ( R squared  +  X squared )

If the water cap is subjected to AC or pulse of any kind , then it SHOULD present Z and SHOULD have a phase shift of 90 degrees leading .  Z SHOULD equal  X  not  R .

Theres a few sites which have C ,R ,Z figures which do not add up at all. I dont think many people notice the flaws. Murakami etc have NO numbers at all.?

[Torana]

TEST CELL
The pipes were cut to length on a lathe
The centre pipe has a bolt welded + centred on a lathe
The Formica plate is 1/4 inch ,  10 " x  2 "
A pilot hole was drilled and a Hole saw used to cut a groove for the out side pipe
The centre bolt hole + groove were drilled at the same time in a drill press
Theres a uniform 1/16 " spacing
The outside pipe is press fit with sealant on the outside only
The bolt has Heavy duty cable heat shrink which gives an over all distance of 2 " insulation ,so the shortest distance is the 1/16 " between the pipes
The top has a Teflon sleeve glued to the rim so the water level is 5", equal to the centre pipe
Any Voltage, amperage,conductance test,continuity and frequency can be tested on a uniform sample of water between 2 equal size conductive surfaces

[Torana]

http://www.alexpetty.com/2010/09/17/water-as-fuel-with-puharich-and-meyer

Air test
freq          C                    R                      Z
100hz       1485pf             1460k                850.2k
120hz       1461pf             1315.6k             769.3k
1khz         571pf               362.1k              218k
10khz       243pf               165.48k             55.3k
DC                                  1276k   

water test
100hz       29.93uf            26.5 ohm           23.8 ohm
120hz       24.78uf            24.9 ohm           22.6 ohm
1khz         1.41uf             16.4 ohm           16.3 ohm
10khz        .300uf             15.1 ohm           15.1 ohm
DC                                 940 ohm           

Permittivity of Air = 1   Water = 80

             water          air   
100hz     29.93uf  /  .001485   = 20,154
120hz     24.78uf  /  .001461   = 16,960
1khz       1.41uf   /   .000571   = 2,469
10khz     .300uf   /   .000243   = 1,234
The difference between air and water cap should be 80 ,the figures above indicate permittivity between from 1200 to 20,000.
If the caps physical dimensions remain the same throughout the test then the permittivity of air also changed from 1 to 6.11.

The DC measurement should be open circuit for a capacitor.
The difference of DC   R readings, 1276000 / 940 = 1357
The water "dielectric" is 1357 times more conductive than air. R = 1 / G . The path of least resistance.
Relying on capacitance meters across water will show false readings all day long. Dry and wet readings always go way beyond the text book 80 .
I havent shown reactance , when theres f and C ,theres Xc ,  Xc and R theres Z.
Im NOT knocking Alex Petty at all ,Im just interested in the figures presented , if anything its a good example.
Ive tested genuine air caps and the result was conduction all the way. A simple test anyone can do and see for themselves.

The cap on the left was submerged...

[Torana]

If breakdown voltage is 30kv per mm , it hasnt been reached in PWM electrolysis cells ,therefore no dielectric breakdown.
This was proven by Aaron Murakami, Dave Lawton, Ravi Raju, Bob Boyce, Fred Wells/FredWoods Will Power/ Fast Freddy and many others.

Collectively they unwittingly proved that a tap water capacitor is not possible.
If they intended on building capacitors ,they ignored permittivity, dimension, the capacitor formula or any approximation of capacitance  measurement.
C = er x e0 x A / d   , for parallel plates.

High power lasers and Accellerators charge pure water for only a micro sec , before the water has time to ionize and conduct, and thats using Pure Water.

One article here shows the model of a water switch, where "it" changes from a dielectric (off) to a resistor (on) .

The "self closing water switch" behaviour doesnt do much for the "water resonance" theory either.

Permittivity = 90

Marx generator and water cap
http://pps.coe.kumamoto-u.ac.jp/streaming/PulsedPower/generator/system1.htm

water cap and self discharge
http://www.el.angstrom.uu.se/meny/artiklar/dielectric%20study%20of.pdf

Sandia 6 MV dielectric breakdown tests
http://www.sandia.gov/pulsedpower/prog_cap/pub_papers/water_breakdown_tests_PRSTAB_2009.pdf

Sandia Water switching/ model /Acoustic wave
http://www.sandia.gov/pulsedpower/prog_cap/pub_papers/022611c.pdf

[Torana]

Steve from   ionizationx   did a straight forward C test on distilled water.

dry  = 10 pf  ,   R = open
Wet = 200 nf  , R = 3500 ohm  leakage

Everyone and anyone who does the same wet / dry C measurement on their own 'water capacitor'
will show a difference similar to Steves.

Ratio =200 / .010 = 20,000  ,   R = infinity /  3500 = Alot

If physical dimension hasnt changed through the testing then the only variable is permittivity of the dielectric
Permittivity 20000 instead of 80  ( 250 X ) , using distilled water not pure water or tap water
The more people that do wet / dry C and R tests the better.

The main focus has been the C measurement and R has been ignored even though it is the reciprocal of conductance  , the basis of electrolysis.
R is constant and consumes power  , a capacitor does not consume power.

Alex Petty   C = 29.93 uf           R = 940 ohm
Steve         C = 200 nf             R = 3500 ohm
J L Naudin   C = 5.19 nf             R = 2.9 M ohm

Steve and Naudin used distilled water , theres a major difference in R readings

J L Naudin    Resonant  LC circuit

reso frequency = 1 /  2 pi sq rt L C
                     = 1 /  2 x pi x ( sq rt , .246 H x 5.19 nf )
                     = 1 / .00022450763   = 4454 hz
..the centre frequency of these 2 components

A parallel reso LC circuit is an Anti Resonant circuit . The Anti reso / resonant freq of any circuit is very specific.
The permittivity of the dielectric ends up being fundamental to the whole concept.

Theres 2 ways to test the water cap
1 = straight to C meter probes
2 = in series with a known cap ,C1 , and treat as if it were 2 caps in series. C2 = water cap.

calculated with reciprocals

(1 / C measured)  minus  (1 / C1)  =  (1 / C2 ) .

following = water cap with 20 mm gap = 8.85 nf , 5mm gap = 35.4 nf
http://www.elkadot.com/en/magneticity/dielectric%20properties.htm

http://www.alexpetty.com/category/meyer

http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm

10mm gap , 130 kv , 300 nsec , deionized water and no breakdown.

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=867765089j53p375&size=largest