Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output

[h2ocommuter]

Les, Bolt, Thank you both for continuing your works.
you are both my hero's.
you both have done such a great deal of work thanks is just a sample of what is necessary for an adequate sense of gratitude.

God Speed
With help like yours I will someday be a real h2ocommuter

Zane

[Doctor No]

Our system for home use with 3-4 kW electrical output will cost under 5.000 EUR (some 7.000 todays dollars).

[Les Banki]

All,

As promised, attached is the pcb layout (in PDF only) for the ‘autorpm’.

Also attached is the ‘autostart’ circuit diagram, description and pcb layout files
(in PDF only)
Strangely, the ‘autostart’ circuit turned out to be the simplest part of the ECU!

While designing the ‘autorpm’ (a few months ago), it occurred to me that the engine could be made to start automatically.
But I ‘shelved’ the idea, not wishing to complicate things more than necessary.
Then, about two weeks ago, suddenly the idea was back again in my mind in all its “simplicity” and a couple of days later the circuit was ready!
So here it is.

Next up (in a few days) is the 240V phase control power supply with 2.4kW capacity.

Please note:
Pcb manufacturers need the original files which contain ALL the information they need. 
I simply don’t know how to attach or up-load the PFW (Protel For Windows) files, so I cannot attach them since this Forum does not accept the format (.pcb extension)
(Further, you  also need the PFW software to open these files.)

If any of you need the original PFW files, just PM me and I will email them to you.

Bolt,
I visited your web site and looked at what you are doing.
I hope you don’t mind if I make some comments.
They are NOT meant to criticize.
After all, most Forums are (or should be!) not only for “entertainment” but for exchange of ideas, sharing research results and learning.

Your approach differs in several ways from mine.
(That is what we call “designer’s choice”, I suppose.)
IMHO, you are complicating things considerably by trying to include hydrocarbon fuels.
You will find (just like I have) that this field (designing ECUs) is NOT for the faint hearted!
Usually, the only ones designing ECUs are design engineers working for engine manufacturers.

I certainly don’t envy you the task trying to do it the way you described it!
Good luck.  You will need it!

If your intention is to have a looped HydrOxy ONLY generator, I don’t see why you would bother with ANY hydrocarbon fuel.
In this, we have a MAJOR difference in our approach.

Since day one, I had/have this attitude:
WATER or NOTHING!

You can call me a FANATIC when it comes to this.
I just don’t want to see a single drop of ANY hydrocarbon fuel anywhere in or near the engine!!
Period!
Not even for starting! 
I much prefer a battery/inverter combination for starting.
That way, I will NOT depend on the ‘oil boys’.

All,

The other issue I wish to comment on applies to everyone.
NO exceptions.
It is about the METHOD of producing gas from water.

But first, I like to point out that most of the time we have used (and still use) the WRONG NAME for the gases derived from water.
No, I am NOT “nit-picking” or “splitting hairs”.
Does the name matter?
As you will see shortly, it does.

I suggest we clean up this mess.
I have already taken the first step by replacing ‘HHO’ with HydrOxy in all my articles.
Why?
Because the gas my set-up produces is NOT pure mono-atomic H+H+O but a combination of di-atomic and mono-atomic, H2 + O2 + H + O.

As everyone knows, water is: H2O

When split with DC current electrolysis, the gas is: H2 + O2
(Note that the devolved gases are in their di-atomic state ONLY.)
This gas has the LOWEST energy level. 
(About ¼ (25%) of the pure mono-atomic H+H+O.)

With PULSED DC electrolysis, we get “Brown’s Gas” or HydrOxy,
H2 + O2 + H + O, (di-atomic plus some mono-atomic gas.)
Its energy level varies with the ratio of di-atomic/mono-atomic gases but usually will be about twice (2X) the energy level of the H2 + O2 gas which is created with DC current. 

With RESONANCE (NOT electrolysis!), we should get ‘pure’ HHO (H+H+O).
It has the HIGHEST energy level. 
About 4X more than H2 + O2 (using DC current)

The importance of this should be obvious.

If not, let me illustrate it with a practical example which everyone can understand.

Let’s look at two (2) experimenters: “A” and “B”
Their set-ups are IDENTICAL, with ONE exception. 
Their electrolyzers (and the power supplies powering them) are DIFFERENT.
But they produce the SAME volume of gas.
 
Here comes the “weird” bit.

Experimenter “A” runs his generator 100% on WATER. 
PLUS other load.

Experimenter “B” needs to ADD hydrocarbon fuel.  He does not have ‘enough’ gas!

But, I repeat, they have the SAME VOLUME of gas!

So what is different?

“B” is using a LOW VOLTAGE, HIGH CURRENT DC POWER SUPPLY to power his electrolyzer.
Further, he has just a few cells in series, then, groups of these are in parallel.
That combination produces only H2 and O2 , di-atomic (molecular) gases!

“A” has a large number of cells in SERIES and uses HIGH VOLTAGE PULSED DC 
power supply.
His set-up produces H2 + O2 + H + O (di-atomic plus some mono-atomic gas).

From my short article titled “Running series cell electrolyzers on 50/60 Hz AC power”, here is a quote:

“It needs to be pointed out that in order to make QUALITY gas (HHO, Hydroxy, Brown’s Gas, etc.), PULSING is necessary.
George Wiseman has also pointed this out in his “Brown’s Gas Book Two” which he published many years ago.

Quote (from page 18):
“Power supply considerations

If we apply straight DC current to the electrolyzer, we find the oxygen and hydrogen devolving to their di-atomic state.  We get NO Brown’s Gas.

The electricity MUST be pulsed to an electrolyzer to produce Brown’s Gas; 120 cps is sufficient to produce Brown’s Gas, even 100 cps will work; so regular wall cycles will work.”
End quote.”

So, the ‘bottom line’ is: the HIGHER the mono-atomic (H+H+O) portion of the gas, the LESS the engine will need to run.

I wish to stress, once again, this is NOT a “fairy tale” story.
Over the years, several experimenters have found it to be correct.

There are two main requirements for running engines on water ONLY:
1.  Quality gas (a portion of it MUST be mono-atomic, H+H+O)
2.  Engine management

If these are ignored (or compromised), it is most unlikely that you will succeed in running engines 100% on water.
Instead, you will end up with a fancy “booster”.

This also explains why so few in the past have succeeded using water as the only fuel.

OK.
If you have problems accepting the above explanation, I suggest you watch the video with Oliver & Valentin again.  Closely.

Pay attention to their cell AND its power supply on the trolley.
What do you see??
A LARGE capacity VARIAC (AC mains supply).
On its moving arm you see a heath sink (probably for the rectifier power diodes).
Next to the VARIAC is what looks like a power resistor bar (current limiter?).
Even without knowing all the details of their set-up, we can safely conclude that it is an un-filtered HV power supply, PULSING at 100Hz.  (twice the mains frequency)

IMO, that is one of the 3 reasons why they have a looped, running system with excess power.
The second is their SERIES cell.  (Anton cell)
The third is IGNITION TIMING.
A bit crude but it works.

Best regards,
Les Banki

[gyulasun]

...
Please note:
Pcb manufacturers need the original files which contain ALL the information they need. 
I simply don’t know how to attach or up-load the PFW (Protel For Windows) files, so I cannot attach them since this Forum does not accept the format (.pcb extension)
(Further, you  also need the PFW software to open these files.)

.....

Hi Les,

Thank you for all the info.

I did some search on the web and found ExpressPCB, a free PCB layout software (has got schematic editor too) and its output file has a format with  .pcb extension. Hopefully it can open the Protel pcb file too (it has to, lol).  Here is a link: http://www.expresspcb.com/index.htm

On this website: http://www.file-extensions.org/  when you do a search for file extension pcb it gives 11 records, see here and scroll down:
http://www.file-extensions.org/search/?searchstring=pcb&searchtype=2 

I suggest zipping the pcb file(s) and then you can upload them here, files with zip extensions are allowed.  The shareware Total Commander file manager has a built-in zip/unzip facility, there are other zip file managers of course like WinZip etc.

rgds,  Gyula

[Les Banki]

Hi Gyula,

While I thank you for your efforts looking into how to attach PFW files, considering the LOW level of interest here in not just my work but the topic of ‘water fuel’ in general, I will leave things as they are.

It is NOT worth my time and effort to publish the original PFW files when no-one needs them!

By the way, I am fully aware of the PCB software you mentioned as well as several others. 
I even have some of them but I tell you, I would be CRAZY to switch from Protel to ANY of them!
The reason is that in my experience (and other’s!), particularly the early versions (1. & 2) of  PROTEL is superior to the others, even the most ‘modern’ ones!

The ENTIRE Protel (PFW) schematic & pcb software is less than 10MB!!! 
No, that is NOT a misprint!
(It was supplied on just 6 Floppy Discs! 
As you know the capacity of a 3.5” Floppy is only 1.44MB)

“THEY” (whoever they are!) just can’t write software like that any more!

Further, do you have any idea about the size of these Protel pcb files?
Just have a look at my ‘autorpm’ pcb layout, which is the LARGEST in this project.
File size:  40KB!
Again, it is NOT a misprint. 
It is 40KB.

Now, compare that to the PDF conversion (which has FAR from all the info):  258KB!

If I understand you correctly, you suggest compressing (Zip) the files only for the sake of attaching them here.
Personally, I dislike working with compressed files.
Enough said.

All,

By checking the number of downloads of files I have attached, I can see that some of you who downloaded them are NOT paying proper attention!
For example:  I indicated that the ‘autorpm’ circuit is LARGE and it requires 2 sheets of A3.
So, ‘autorpm1’ AND ‘autorpm2’ makes up the COMPLETE “autorpm” circuit.

I see that while the ‘autorpm1’ was downloaded 50 times, ‘autorpm2’ was downloaded only 42 times!
That means that some of you DO NOT HAVE the complete circuit!

OK.
I have attached the 2.4kW HV phase control power supply circuit diagram, description and the two (2) pcb layouts (PDF).
The reason for two boards is isolation.
HV (AC and DC) on one board and the low voltage control circuit on the other.

Note that the isolation is performed by a 20A Hall effect current sensor.  (see description)

Next up is the optical (IR) water/electrolyte level sensors and re-fill electronics!

Have fun!

Best regards,
Les Banki