Oscilloscope?

[allcanadian]

@All
As the new year is approaching I will go a little further, I have often asked the simple question-- what is it we are measuring with our oscilloscopes?. The common answer would be voltage over a known period of time however this must always lead to the next question --what is voltage? Here we may find the common answer is that voltage is a potential difference, that is voltage is not something tangible it is simply a "measure" of the difference between two charged states and it is the charged state which represents the potential. We should also understand that voltage is relative as it always involves two points, that is I can charge a capacitor to a know voltage and measure a voltage across the capacitor, I can measure a voltage from either terminal of the capacitor to the ground plane (earth), or measure a voltage from either terminal of the capacitor to a conductive surface having sufficient area. I can charge a single object and measure a voltage relative to any other object which is nearby whether this other object is bound to a closed path, a circuit, or not.

I have found in many cases that the way in which even most experts use an oscilloscope is somewhat archaic as I do not believe we should be limited to measuring a potential difference solely through conduction or induction which I have found can be very misleading. As such I developed differential charge detector arrays to measure point charge magnitude and differential magnitude thus velocity of the electric fields. In fact I have to wonder how one could understand anything in regards to any circuit within the severe limitations of measuring solely the effects of conduction and induction in conductors. It is as if there is this whole other world hidden from us beyond the boundary condition we know as the conductor which we refuse to acknowledge simply because we cannot see it. As well because we cannot see it and have not bothered to measure it we have assumed there is nothing there or that if there was something there it must have a condition which is "static" in nature. However if there is one lesson we should have learned from nature it is that there is no "static" non-motive condition in nature, even the apparent static condition must always have variable degrees of motion within and external to itself and this motion represents energy. This is basic physics and I think most know this occurs but the question remains, why have we not studied it further beyond what we have been told?.

I have also found through experiment that most all the standard tools we have at our disposal are simply not up to the task of giving us the answers we require. For instance did you know that when we touch a single terminal of a 12v battery, either (+) or (-), that the whole surface of our body assumes this charged state? Or that we can then hold in our hand an ungrounded wire in excess of 100 feet and this charged state from the single terminal of the battery acting through our body appears at the open end of the wire? I understand this is basic physics but the question I would ask is are we aware of this or have we considered why this must always happen and what the consequences of such an effect could be?. This may seem trivial to some but I do not consider any effect of any sort trivial by any means as every effect no matter how small has a purpose and has value when put in the right context. As well I have found that in certain instances a resistor or resistance can fail to resist ot impede anything which leads to the question of whether current can be accurately measured when the current refuses to produce a voltage drop across the resistance, is that weird or what.

So in this coming new year I would hope I have given some here reason to pause and consider the things they build in new ways or from a new perspective. I have found in every case that it is not so much what we build but the extent of our understanding of what we build, it is the attention to every little detail no matter how small and the consideration of an action and its many effects which would seem to matter the most.

Best wishes and a happy new year
AC

[Omnibus]

I'm always open to new ideas but I don't see any in your text. Current, for instanc,e can be measured without breaking the circuit, using a Hall effect probe, and that is the most accurate measurement because it involves the electromagnetic field around the conductor which is the measure of the passing current. So, the problem of shunts you pose when measuring current is in fact moot. As for the voltage, aside from passive probes there are active probes and there are also differential probes which eliminate the measuring of the potential against the ground but give the potential difference between two arbitrarily chosen points, the goal of the measurement. Where's the problem, then, and what is the novelty in your approach? The biggest concern with the voltage probes is that their input impedance isn't sufficient enough (not greater than 1MOhm) and the presence of a capacitive component. The accuracy of measuring the potential is also a problem, as I already mentioned, as well as the intrinsic problems in the modern digital storage oscilloscopes of processing the digital data. I don't understand what these static conditions are of measuring the potential you talk about. Hence, I have no idea what this "whole other world hidden from us beyond the boundary condition" really is. Methods of measuring potential are well understood and the problem is to have proper eqipment available to implement them. There's no hidden world there, only lack of means to enjoy the achievements of our industrialized civilization. In a word, I don't see your point.

[allcanadian]

@Ominibus

Now, it's my turn to disagree. OU studies are exclusively about measuring things. Understanding is easy, proper measuring is the difficult part. You say you've measured a lot of circuits, however, how many of them have found their place in peer-reviewed scientific journals. None, I guess, and that speaks volumes. Like I said, you may use cheap oscilloscopes, even analog ones for preliminary studies but for research level studies in the field of OU the high-end scopes are a must. Now, the fellow needs to start with something, to be able to learn. For that purpose your advice is fine and I agree with it. If he, however, wants to get into more advanced stuff a 300 dollar scope will not be at all sufficient. The field of OU is filled with studies which have no scientific merit because of poor equipment mainly and I don't think adding more to it is a good idea (learnining is a different story and that has nothing to do with OU research itself).

I guess we will agree to disagree to some extent which is not uncommon in these forums, as far as measurement goes I think it is straight forward and use the black box method. The device whatever it is can be considered as the black box and the input/output are storage capacitors as such the measurement is related solely to voltage. I understand there are many issues with capacitors but they are far less of a concern than complcated measurements and calculations which in themselves generate errors.
I also liked your posts on documentation and peer review as there seems to be a growing number of claims with a decreasing amount of proof to substantiate the claims. To be honest I do not mind outright claims without proof as it leaves a lot to the imagination which can lead to new insight but little actual progress is made. In the end however the amount of measurable progress is what will matter to people and this progress will be a result of documentation and concrete proof not claims.
Regards
AC

[allcanadian]

@Omnibus

I'm always open to new ideas but I don't see any in your text. Current, for instanc,e can be measured without breaking the circuit, using a Hall effect probe, and that is the most accurate measurement because it involves the electromagnetic field around the conductor which is the measure of the passing current. So, the problem of shunts you pose when measuring current is in fact moot.

I would agree and have hall effect probes I have designed and built however this does not address the issue of what happens when the "current" in question has little or no magnetic component and prefers the space exterior to the conductor, a motional electric field.

As for the voltage, aside from passive probes there are active probes and there are also differential probes which eliminate the measuring of the potential against the ground but give the potential difference between two arbitrarily chosen points, the goal of the measurement. Where's the problem, then, and what is the novelty in your approach? The biggest concern with the voltage probes is that their input impedance isn't sufficient enough (not greater than 1MOhm) and the presence of a capacitive component.

Again I would agree however this does not address the issue of what happens when the "current", and I use this term loosely, in question has little preference whether it conducts over the surface of a metallic conductor or an insulator such as plastic or ceramic. As you can imagine the term input impedance would take on a whole new meaning as the impedance would simply force the energy to take an alternate route, the path of least resistance on the surface of the probes to the oscilloscope which defeats the purpose of the measurement.

The accuracy of measuring the potential is also a problem, as I already mentioned, as well as the intrinsic problems in the modern digital storage oscilloscopes of processing the digital data. I don't understand what these static conditions are of measuring the potential you talk about. Hence, I have no idea what this "whole other world hidden from us beyond the boundary condition" really is. Methods of measuring potential are well understood and the problem is to have proper eqipment available to implement them. There's no hidden world there, only lack of means to enjoy the achievements of our industrialized civilization. In a word, I don't see your point.

Here is one example, I start a relatively small circuit (6"x6"x6")powered from a 12v motorcycle battery and all metallic objects on the bench start arcing over onto one another and my analog oscilloscope three feet away starts making sharp cracking noises as it arcs over internally with the probes not connected to anything which are also three feet away, the scope is not on. As well plastic trays, tools and bench coverings will become charged and retain this charge long after any conductors have become partially neutralized when the device has stopped operating. I think it is fairly obvious what would happen to a DSO when one considers the internal electronic components in it and this is part of the reason I prefer my old analog scope. Would you wager to guess how long your DSO would last with many of the internal circuit connections arcing over as my old analog scope was? As well I should have mentioned that this arcing had occurred a few times and my oscilloscope still works perfectly. I blame that infernal Nikola Tesla for introducing me to this crazy world where many things simply do not act as they should, he was a brilliant man.
Regards
AC

[Taylor1992]

I thank you both for the insight. It's always nice to have some veteran enthusiasts provide feedback, but I'll have to ask that you two peacocks stop posturing on this thread, as you are blowing up my in-box.