PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?

[JouleSeeker]

  Again, we face the important challenge of accurately measuring POWER, both input and output Power.

   @Lawrence, .99 is correct about this:  "But remember that voltage times current is power, and the PRODUCT is what needs to be averaged, not the individual voltage and current.
If a circuit is either receiving or using power, the PRODUCT (v x i)(t) will not be symmetrical above and below zero as you are showing; there will always be some asymmetry."

   Now, I have been using oscilloscopes, but I'm looking for an accurate alternative for measuring power.  I've been concerned about RF pick-up in the probes, for example.
Hence I've pushed for the used of the cap/time method for measuring Pinput -- direct, straightforward. 

    For Poutput, I'm proposing the use of a simple calorimeter.  Here's the latest from discussion with my colleague to get a ~5-10% measurement of Poutput.  (After tests at this level are made on several devices, one can use the expensive calorimeter at the university for better precision.)   

This design one may be able to use at home.  I welcome comments!!  especially on the temperature measurement -- is there something better than a Seebeck device, on the block of aluminum?   


From Prof H:

A block of aluminum (around 4" diameter and 1" thick) to act as a constant temperature heat sink. This does not have to be temperature controlled unless you want to operate away from room temperature.
Stick a 2" square BiTe thermoelectric (Seebeck device or thermopile) on the block with heat sink compound or the right type of silicone glue. Connect the wires from the [Seebeck or thermopile] device to a microvoltmeter and a computer.

Place the [DUT] device on the Seebeck device so it makes good thermal contact, maybe use heat sink compound. [We should think about this part... resistors, LED's etc. need to dump their heat "through" the thermopile, for the measurement of Poutput to be accurate.  In time, and with good insulation, the heat will go through, but it may be very slow unless thermal contact is good... comments?] 

Run the wires around the aluminum block and tape them down...
Cover the whole thing with a Styrofoam box.
To run the experiment:
Wait until the signal from the voltmeter is stable, record some baseline for a few minutes, trigger the device, and continue recording until the signal returns to baseline.
Integrate the signal above the baseline to get the total heat.
Calibrate the system with an electrical resistor in place of your device.

And note that this cal'r is not a Faraday cage... the DUT sits on top of the thermopile, which sits on the heat sink (Al cylinder). 
Comments welcomed.

[nul-points]

 

[...]
For Poutput, I'm proposing the use of a simple calorimeter.  Here's the latest from discussion with my colleague to get a ~5-10% measurement of Poutput.  (After tests at this level are made on several devices, one can use the expensive calorimeter at the university for better precision.)   

This design one may be able to use at home.  I welcome comments!!  especially on the temperature measurement -- is there something better than a Seebeck device, on the block of aluminum?   


From Prof H:

And note that this cal'r is not a Faraday cage... the DUT sits on top of the thermopile, which sits on the heat sink (Al cylinder). 
Comments welcomed.

Sounds like a good first step - if it seems that you have some worthwhile results from this initial setup then its worth going on to run some higher precision tests on the main test rig

my comments:-

a) Faraday shielding is a must, to eliminate pickup of extraneous energy

b) total thermal capacity of the heatsink should be chosen preferably to give suitable resolution of the anticipated quantity to be measured - may need small range of heatsink 'bases' for different sized experiments

c) use a small block of the same heatsink material, in good thermal connection with base heatsink, and with a suitable horizontal 'through hole' to mount test o/p resistors (packed with thermal compound), and a suitable vertical 'through hole' to accept LEDs pointed at the base heatsink

d) presume main heatsink is thermally insulated below?


i've seen a report describing a low-tech measure of heat produced from a capacitor-charge experiment - i'll check to see what type of sensor they used (their overall approach was just to use a copper tube for the test resistor, pack with compound, and measure max temp rise for DUT compared to DC o/p thro' same resistor - i guess this could be simpler setup for an initial go/no-go check as to whether to do a full calr. test?)

[EDIT:  yes, they used copper-constantan thermocouples - one on the o/p resistor copper tube - and one on a reference copper disk near the DUT - and measured the difference between the sensor o/ps, all long wiring was laid out in a non-inductive pattern within the area of the thermal test, all of which was located on a suitably-sized styrofoam base]

hope this helps
np

[PS   if my device for test hasn't arrived yet, then i guess it's attracted some attention from homeland security!!]


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

[neptune]

Just a Crazy idea . Why not immerse the whole circuit in a glass jar full of oil , and measure the temperature rise of the oil . I know that oil does not damage resistors in the short term , as I made a "dummy load " for a transmitter using resistors in a jar of oil . 20 years later , the resistance was still 50 ohms . This method eliminates [ or nearly] losses due to convection.I used ordinary car engine oil , but ideally , the oil used to cool large transformers if you can get it . When choosing an oil , check it for conductivity with a multimeter .

[nul-points]

 

Just a Crazy idea
[...]

Mr neptune, we expect nothing less from you!! 

Why not immerse the whole circuit in a glass jar full of oil , and measure the temperature rise of the oil
[...]
When choosing an oil , check it for conductivity with a multimeter .

yes, interesting idea (you can clean-up my circuits for me afterwards, tho!)

one possible issue, maybe just for sensitive circuits (and being a sensitive sort of person, ALL my circuits are sensitive)... is that i've recently seen that someone like Lidmotor (or Lasersaber?) has been experimenting with using oil as an 'electrolyte-replacement' in a DIY voltage cell

so although a dummy resistive load for a transmitter may work mostly as intended when immersed in oil, it's just possible that a more complex electronic circuit would start to exhibit some unexpected behaviour

hey - maybe that's the answer - remove the battery - drop the whole thing in a jar of oil - and Robert's your paternal sibling ...a self-energising circuit!!

now where's my 3-in-1 oil..... 

[ltseung888]

Lawrence,

You appear to be confused between the MEAN value of a voltage wave form, and the MEAN value of a power wave form; they are not the same.

Yes, the MEAN of a perfectly symmetrical sine wave voltage is zero. But remember that voltage times current is power, and the PRODUCT is what needs to be averaged, not the individual voltage and current.

If a circuit is either receiving or using power, the PRODUCT (v x i)(t) will not be symmetrical above and below zero as you are showing; there will always be some asymmetry. When you take the MEAN of this result, you will obtain the average power used or received.

.99

Dear Poynt99 and Prof. Jones,

Let me clarify our different points of view.  I know that the Steven Mark Device and similar are working at resonance.  To be more exact, I believe such circuits “hop in and out” of resonance.  To find out how much “electric energy” that can be drained out in such a setup, we need to examine the standing power waveform.  The higher the amplitude of the node or the larger area enclosed by the positive or negative power waveform, the larger will be the “electrical energy” that can be extracted.

This is different from the actual output power which you correctly pointed out â€" is given by the mean power.

With the resonating FLEET circuits, we “hop in and out” of the resonance zone.  Electron Motion energy can be brought-in at resonance but will stop coming-in as soon the frequency or setup shifts away from resonance.  My peak-to-peak power waveform measurement is absolutely correct in indicating the “possible energy that can be brought-in”.

Two FLEET prototypes can have extremely different node amplitudes.  The mean output power can be approximately equal.  I am interested in the node amplitude.  You are interested in the actual output power.  To achieve multiple LCR circuits pulsing/resonating, I can use the standing power waveform as a stepping stone.  If that peak-to-peak power is large, I know that much more energy can be extracted.

I am very clear on the exact mechanism now.  Thus there is no point in further debate or discussion which will confuse the average forum member more.

Please wait for the 13 year old, Michael Du, to come up with the results when the oscilloscopes arrive.  He is the only one trained by me who is willing to share the results free.  Hopefully, he will not change his mind.

God has shown His Divine Revelations.  Humans confused themselves and each other either deliberately or ignorantly. Amen.