Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells

[Peanutbutter29]

Okay, let' see if I can help with answers here,
First about the mention of the cell being dead in 4 months.  That isn't exactly what I was trying to convey.  When you assemble the cell, meaning brand new (just with Al, C, Epsom and H20) it IS DEAD, from a chemical point of view.  The addition of an electrostatic difference of potential between the 2 plates (.6v) acts the same as an EXTERNAL applied voltage of .6v.  This means there is an electrolysis of appx. 20uA CHARGING the cell.  To Start with a charged cell, look at the discharge cycle (e.g. take Al and epsom, plate onto it by electrolysis;  remove from water and dry.  Use same electrolyte solution to mix durhams cell and voila!  you have an assembled charged cell)

The reference specifically to 4 months was how long it would take for you to "see" a buildup on Al if you put Carbon with it in plain water and epsom; to sit. 

Next about silica sand.  I'm not sure what you mean by "replace" electrolyte, since it in itself is not an electrolyte.  It could be used to replace the durhams.  But cannot replace epsom or h20 in this case.  If the components are there (chemicals and electrostatic potential) then it would be possible to form one of a couple acids;  depending on chemicals.  Silicic Acid would be one.  Though checking into things, silane is possible with chlorine and electrostatic pressure.
Silicon is Oxidized to produce Silane SiH4  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silane (nasty stuff)
Silicon is Reduced to produce Silica SO2
So then would it increase VA or charge time, only if it were converted (reacted upon) in the equation.  Otherwise inert like Durhams' here.
Next, about changing ratios affecting the equation.  Since durhams is not a reactant here your ratios, should, only be changing the relative conductivity / ion carrying capacity of the "connective medium".  But you can see you end up with a hydrolytic war between Durhams wanting to be anhydrous and the epsom wanting to be a hydrate.  It would seem your at the edge of maximum epsom for sure, though I would imagine you want a decent ratio of epsom.  A side note here, I tamped the cells a bit while wet to allow still solid crystals to fall to the + plate in my cells. 

As for an upper voltage limit to the cells, yup.  All of these cell designs, if chargeable, will have a max V. (insert R/C peak charger )

Lol @ the R&D company .  I'm not a business man and prefer learning.  If I can help someone else, somehow, get further for them to accomplish something;  I am content.

Next dissolving in hot water will increase solubility of epsom, but probably will make the durhams take an extremely long time to set.  For making your own version, you prolly could (not sure if cheaper) and it would allow variations of porosity, possibly. 

Finally to explain another way why this works.  With Al and MgSO4, Mg and SO4 are the most reactive and stay bonded.  When electrostatic potential is applied to Al (adding charge) it now becomes more reactive (slightly) than Mg;  thus Al and SO4 become the most reactive and bond.  A return to "ground" state then, when connected in a circuit;  re-creates the starting condition of Mg being more reactive and thus the AlSO4 is broken and MgSO4 is most reactive.

I dug out a couple old books I have and looked back into batt stuff.  there's a couple goodies, if not known.
-They repeatedly point out that polarization of the electrolyte will cause gasses and is NOT wanted.
-From Parker's Philosophy 1870 "Voltaic Pile may be constructed in the following manner:  Take a number of plates of silver, and the same number of zinc, and also of woollen cloth- the cloth having being soaked in a solution of sal ammoniac in water.  With these a pile is to be formed....."
-"instead of using 2 different metals to form the galvanic circuit, one metal, in different states, may be employed;  the essential principle being, that one of the elements shall be more powerfully affected by some chemical agent than the other.  Thus, if a galvanic pair be made of the same metal;  one part must be softer than the other (as is the case with cast or rolled zinc);  or a greater amount of surface must be exposed to corrosion....;  or a more powerful chemical agent may be used on one side than the other, so that a current will be sent from the part most corroded, through the liquid, to the part least corroded;  whenever the poles are united, and the circuit thereby completed"
-sulfate of copper battery - Blue Vitriol and Copper tube and Zinc tube in solution.  Zinc removed when not used. run time, hours
-Protected sulfate of copper - earthenware or leather separator between copper and zinc above.  Formed 2 cells.  Sulfate of copper in outer, Glauber salt or common salt in the inner (zinc) Zinc removed when not in use. Runtime days
-Grove's Battery - Highest current of the time.  Platinum and Zinc electrodes strong nitric acid exposed to platinum and sulfuric acid with zinc earthenware separator.  Platinum is removed when not in use. 3x current than sulfate of copper battery. Shorted sparks ignite gunpowder, cotton, etc.

Applied electricity 1920 Vol.1 (Nikola Tesla one of the co-authors for series)
-Bichromate cell - Plate of zinc immersed in sulfuric acid between 2 plates of carbon.  bichromate of potassium is dissolved into solution. Zinc is removed when not in use.  2.1v , .2-.5ohm internal, 5-10amp output. Short cell life but high current
-Daniell cell commonly known.  Zinc in zinc sulfate, copper in copper sulfate, earthen cup separator
-Crowfoot Gravity cell - same as above, but uses density of fluid for separation. Copper and sulfate on bottom (heavy), Zinc and sulfate on top (light).  Advantage "polarization is almost entirely avoided, for the reason no opportunity is given for the formation of hydrogen bubbles".  Zinc removed when not in operation.  1.08v, 1-6ohms, 1amp max.  run time, long;  "until all the copper is driven out of the sulfate solution"
-Leclanche Cell-  Zinc rod in ammonium chloride and carbon plate inside a porous cup full of dry manganese dioxide and powered graphite.  Cell will recover when left open circuit, zinc dissolves hydrogen liberated at carbon.  Subject to polarization from rapid currents.  1.5v, <1ohm, intermittent 1-3amps.  First cell that left electrode in open circuit since Zinc wasn't dissolved by ammonium chloride.

-Dry Cell- "Modified Leclanche' cell". "It is  not really dry, since the carbon plate is imbedded in a moist paste contained in a cylindrical can made of zinc.  The paste usually consists of crystals (dry) of ammonium chloride, 3 parts of plaster of paris, 1 part of zinc oxide, 1 part zinc chloride and 2 parts water.  The plaster of paris is used to give the cell rigidity"  Same reaction as Leclanche cell.  Cannot be left closed circuit.  Dead cell can be improved by punching a hole in the top and adding water saturated with ammonium chloride. 

Oh and they considered "dry piles" electrostatic batteries, as opposed to volta batteries in the early 1800's. 

Thanks,
PB

Edit: the solution i'm testing is now at 38.1hrs and .29ma (total recovered 26.1maH)

[PhiChaser]

Okay, let' see if I can help with answers here,
First about the mention of the cell being dead in 4 months.  That isn't exactly what I was trying to convey.  When you assemble the cell, meaning brand new (just with Al, C, Epsom and H20) it IS DEAD, from a chemical point of view.  The addition of an electrostatic difference of potential between the 2 plates (.6v) acts the same as an EXTERNAL applied voltage of .6v.  This means there is an electrolysis of appx. 20uA CHARGING the cell.  To Start with a charged cell, look at the discharge cycle (e.g. take Al and epsom, plate onto it by electrolysis;  remove from water and dry.  Use same electrolyte solution to mix durhams cell and voila!  you have an assembled charged cell)

Okay, the 20uA is from using the H2O as a conduit between the potentials of C and Al? Am I good so far?
I'm trying to bond all the extra H2O to either a starch or to the gypsum and/or limestone. Gypsum isn't part of the formula? My cells are powdered ingredients, no big crystals (although I'm hoping that isn't as important as it probably is...). Anyhow, sorry to be thick headed, it is like trying to learn another language without a primer...

The reference specifically to 4 months was how long it would take for you to "see" a buildup on Al if you put Carbon with it in plain water and epsom; to sit. 

Ah, sorry about the confusion (again...). My C and Al are imbedded in an inert solid (?) so will there still be a buildup of some kind?

Next about silica sand.  I'm not sure what you mean by "replace" electrolyte, since it in itself is not an electrolyte.  It could be used to replace the durhams.  But cannot replace epsom or h20 in this case.  If the components are there (chemicals and electrostatic potential) then it would be possible to form one of a couple acids;  depending on chemicals.  Silicic Acid would be one.  Though checking into things, silane is possible with chlorine and electrostatic pressure.
Silicon is Oxidized to produce Silane SiH4  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silane (nasty stuff)
Silicon is Reduced to produce Silica SO2
So then would it increase VA or charge time, only if it were converted (reacted upon) in the equation.  Otherwise inert like Durhams' here.

Are you SURE the Durham's is inert to this equation? Seems like gypsum is really crystalline! Regarding the silica; The idea of the pyramids keeps coming to mind. Big limestone things sitting on top of this huge bed of sand. I've thought for years that they were some sort of power supply... Another thread for another day no doubt... If one cell can draw/supply vA from another THROUGH the sand then perhaps a large array would make more steady overall output. Does that make sense? Say the closer cells draw down but the cells further away wouldn't draw down much, and/or would assist the closer cells in maintaining a steadier vA output. ? 
Er... Next...

Next, about changing ratios affecting the equation.  Since durhams is not a reactant here your ratios, should, only be changing the relative conductivity / ion carrying capacity of the "connective medium".  But you can see you end up with a hydrolytic war between Durhams wanting to be anhydrous and the epsom wanting to be a hydrate.  It would seem your at the edge of maximum epsom for sure, though I would imagine you want a decent ratio of epsom.  A side note here, I tamped the cells a bit while wet to allow still solid crystals to fall to the + plate in my cells.

Finding out that more isn't necessarily better. Will know for certain in a few days...

As for an upper voltage limit to the cells, yup.  All of these cell designs, if chargeable, will have a max V. (insert R/C peak charger )

Lol @ the R&D company .  I'm not a business man and prefer learning.  If I can help someone else, somehow, get further for them to accomplish something;  I am content.

Next dissolving in hot water will increase solubility of epsom, but probably will make the durhams take an extremely long time to set.  For making your own version, you prolly could (not sure if cheaper) and it would allow variations of porosity, possibly. 

Easier is better. I like the idea that anyone can make these easily, that is the direction I think I should stick with. The simpler it is to do, the more people will be likely to try it, right? Might be right about the heat, I will figure that out when I get more electrode supplies...

Finally to explain another way why this works.  With Al and MgSO4, Mg and SO4 are the most reactive and stay bonded.  When electrostatic potential is applied to Al (adding charge) it now becomes more reactive (slightly) than Mg;  thus Al and SO4 become the most reactive and bond.  A return to "ground" state then, when connected in a circuit;  re-creates the starting condition of Mg being more reactive and thus the AlSO4 is broken and MgSO4 is most reactive.

I think I get it now. Thank you for being so patient with me!! Does that answer why I get current between ANY two electrodes when I have multiple cells in series? The desire for electrons to return to 'ground'? The question this brings to mind then, is how do we exploit this to our advantage? Use the cells as transistors somehow? Some sort of cascading (capacitor?) array??
If I can get a steady .5v (or better would be nice!) @ 20uA (or better...) then the issue starts to become one of size. How small can the cells be and still give the same vA? The smaller the better... Transistors are so small you need a microscope to see them these days...

I dug out a couple old books I have and looked back into batt stuff.  there's a couple goodies, if not known.
-They repeatedly point out that polarization of the electrolyte will cause gasses and is NOT wanted.
-From Parker's Philosophy 1870 "Voltaic Pile may be constructed in the following manner:  Take a number of plates of silver, and the same number of zinc, and also of woollen cloth- the cloth having being soaked in a solution of sal ammoniac in water.  With these a pile is to be formed....."
-"instead of using 2 different metals to form the galvanic circuit, one metal, in different states, may be employed;  the essential principle being, that one of the elements shall be more powerfully affected by some chemical agent than the other.  Thus, if a galvanic pair be made of the same metal;  one part must be softer than the other (as is the case with cast or rolled zinc);  or a greater amount of surface must be exposed to corrosion....;  or a more powerful chemical agent may be used on one side than the other, so that a current will be sent from the part most corroded, through the liquid, to the part least corroded;  whenever the poles are united, and the circuit thereby completed"
-sulfate of copper battery - Blue Vitriol and Copper tube and Zinc tube in solution.  Zinc removed when not used. run time, hours
-Protected sulfate of copper - earthenware or leather separator between copper and zinc above.  Formed 2 cells.  Sulfate of copper in outer, Glauber salt or common salt in the inner (zinc) Zinc removed when not in use. Runtime days
-Grove's Battery - Highest current of the time.  Platinum and Zinc electrodes strong nitric acid exposed to platinum and sulfuric acid with zinc earthenware separator.  Platinum is removed when not in use. 3x current than sulfate of copper battery. Shorted sparks ignite gunpowder, cotton, etc.

Applied electricity 1920 Vol.1 (Nikola Tesla one of the co-authors for series)
-Bichromate cell - Plate of zinc immersed in sulfuric acid between 2 plates of carbon.  bichromate of potassium is dissolved into solution. Zinc is removed when not in use.  2.1v , .2-.5ohm internal, 5-10amp output. Short cell life but high current
-Daniell cell commonly known.  Zinc in zinc sulfate, copper in copper sulfate, earthen cup separator
-Crowfoot Gravity cell - same as above, but uses density of fluid for separation. Copper and sulfate on bottom (heavy), Zinc and sulfate on top (light).  Advantage "polarization is almost entirely avoided, for the reason no opportunity is given for the formation of hydrogen bubbles".  Zinc removed when not in operation.  1.08v, 1-6ohms, 1amp max.  run time, long;  "until all the copper is driven out of the sulfate solution"
-Leclanche Cell-  Zinc rod in ammonium chloride and carbon plate inside a porous cup full of dry manganese dioxide and powered graphite.  Cell will recover when left open circuit, zinc dissolves hydrogen liberated at carbon.  Subject to polarization from rapid currents.  1.5v, <1ohm, intermittent 1-3amps.  First cell that left electrode in open circuit since Zinc wasn't dissolved by ammonium chloride.

-Dry Cell- "Modified Leclanche' cell". "It is  not really dry, since the carbon plate is imbedded in a moist paste contained in a cylindrical can made of zinc.  The paste usually consists of crystals (dry) of ammonium chloride, 3 parts of plaster of paris, 1 part of zinc oxide, 1 part zinc chloride and 2 parts water.  The plaster of paris is used to give the cell rigidity"  Same reaction as Leclanche cell.  Cannot be left closed circuit.  Dead cell can be improved by punching a hole in the top and adding water saturated with ammonium chloride. 

Oh and they considered "dry piles" electrostatic batteries, as opposed to volta batteries in the early 1800's. 

Thanks,
PB

Edit: the solution i'm testing is now at 38.1hrs and .29ma (total recovered 26.1maH)

I can tell you were better at turning in homework than me...
Most of that stuff sounds toxic to me. I like inert ingredients!
Awesome research PB! Thanks again. I will keep everyone up to date as things progress...
Oh, I found out today that I ordered an old 0-2v meter that was AC instead of DC so... Not sure what I'm gonna do with that. Guess I'll try it out heh heh...
I also got an old watt meter (150uA, it goes to 3milliwats) that should come in handy (I hope!) when it gets here.

Happy experimenting,
PC

[triffid]

PC ,I'm using the wax from a old candle.You can find one at a garage sale real cheap.I bought 4 more lbs of epsom salts today for $3.00 from family dollar.Their store brand.Not top care.I hooked up four of my latest cells in series,remember I broke off(by accident) two magnesium strips of of two of them.I got 4.01 volts and .30 mAs.That's 1.2 milliwatts.I tested my dried cells made with paper circles and aluminum foil circles and pennies and got .22 volts on a few of them.I stacked three of them and got only .42 volts.I think I am done with them.Too small for my hands for one thing.My pizza boxes were a disaster.Too much waste of materials.The egg cartons were better.All the materials seem to go into little funnels.Kept my table and floor cleaner.My aspirin cells show the least corrosion of the magnesium strips.The first vitamin C cells seemed ok for a while but I found two that were ate up (magnesium strips that is).I now have some decisions to make.triffid

[triffid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_sulfate  Also known as Glauber salt.

[triffid]

I used two different types of vitamin C.First one was pill form 1000mg with silica and, stearic acid and its buffer magnesium stearate.


The second  vitamin C had citric acid in it too but no stearic acid and certainly not its buffer.It had silicon dioxide in it too.




Both Cs had ascorbic acid in them.