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[profitis]

correct @ mark E. While those ions diffuse and spread out electrical work is done and heat is absorbed from the environment to compensate the done work,like an expanding gas on a piston in a cylinder after compression.its drive to electrochemical entropy equilibrium priority number one.it obeys kelvin rule because its reversability is non spontaneous.effort is required to re-concentrate those ions but not so with the karpen system.in the karpen system electrochemical entropy balance is achieved by compression of gas when it passes from one electrode to the other and then of course reverts to original state when  switched off,back to each electrodes most stable state when non-relative to each other.a karpen cell is an gaseous electrode concentration cell,not an ionic concentration cell.the nernst equation applies to both classes of concentration cells.

[sarkeizen]

yes demonstrate is the key word @sarkeizen i.e. to build and see

"demonstrate" is a key term, but as usual your definition is one of the most stupid ones possible.

To demonstrate that there is no logically-valid alternative does not require you to build a physical device.  As I demonstrated earlier, you can not observe the outcomes you require purely empirically. So building something can not make your point. QED.  Moron.

do you want me to CITE and EXPLAIN (your not an electrochemist i presume) how a concentration cell,s entropy requirements can be met without kelvin rule in the picture,yes or no.

Again, you are too ambiguous.  I've stated what is required.  You need to make a series of statements, each one must force the next.  It must start at a textbook cite and end with the statement which I've reproduced probably a hundred times by now.

Nice to see that you're trying to worm your way out of making a useful argument though.

@sarkeizen your implying that kelvin statement is necessary for all thermodynamic entropy requirements is totaly false.

Shhh I was talking about math.  When you know more than high-school math - then you're allowed to talk about it.  So far...no dice.

[MarkE]

correct @ mark E. While those ions diffuse and spread out electrical work is done and heat is absorbed from the environment to compensate the done work,like an expanding gas on a piston in a cylinder after compression.its drive to electrochemical entropy equilibrium priority number one.it obeys kelvin rule because its reversability is non spontaneous.effort is required to re-concentrate those ions but not so with the karpen system.in the karpen system electrochemical entropy balance is achieved by compression of gas when it passes from one electrode to the other and then of course reverts to original state when  switched off,back to each electrodes most stable state when non-relative to each other.

Thanks again, but it seems we may have an issue with terms.  My understanding of thermodynamic reversibility is that something is only reversible if it can go from a first state to a second state or back without external energy input, IE effort.  Do we agree on this?  If we do, it would seem to me that Nernst as it describes systems that go towards equilibrium implicitly precludes reversibility.

I see that the Karpen pile has a fair bit of controversy around it.  I think we will be diving down a big rabbit hole if we attempt discuss how something works when it is disputed whether it works as claimed in the first place.

[profitis]

@mark E a nernst potential between 2 half-cells at equal temperature tells us that its going to be a spontaneous reaction.it says nothing about irreversability or how much extra effort we,l need to reverse it,only kelvin statement tells us that stuff so we cant possibly come to conclusions on how much extra effort we,l need.we can only know the minimum effort we need to feed it to reverse it. In the case of karpen,s battery we,l have to use a battery based on the same principal but at least 10-100 times more power density to be taken seriously.

[MarkE]

@mark E a nernst potential between 2 half-cells at equal temperature tells us that its going to be a spontaneous reaction.it says nothing about irreversability or how much extra effort we,l need to reverse it,only kelvin statement tells us that stuff so we cant possibly come to conclusions on how much extra effort we,l need.we can only know the minimum effort we need to feed it to reverse it. In the case of karpen,s battery we,l have to use a battery based on the same principal but at least 10-100 times more power density to be taken seriously.

Profitis, doesn't the Nernst equation depend on the reactants going from whatever the current state is towards an equilibrium / depleted state? 

Unless someone can point to a validation of what it is the Karpen battery supposedly does I don't think it makes a useful example of any particular process.