RE: HHO Electrodes, nickel, titanium, and carbon preliminary results

[ydeardorff]

To the left of carbon on the row of nickel are zinc, copper, nickel,cobalt, iron, manganese, chromium, vanadium, titanium....I don't know your criteria for choosing nickel or titanium in partner with your carbon.

I don't know what you mean by opposite of its natural state. Perhaps you can describe your setup.

Carbon Naturally wants to lose or gain 4 electrons to become noble. So if we move over to the left 4 rows we land on nickel.
However nickel if it gives up 4 electrons makes an ion that is similar to that of chromium. (bad ju ju) it is a naturally poisonous metal so using it can be bad in these cells. So I looked along the same horizontal row and found that if titanium gives up 4 electrons to carbon the ions produced are similar to that of the noble gasses neon, and argon. Which would make the ions become noble in the electron configuration, which is what they want to do naturally. So by exploiting that natural tendency, The by products (ions) are safe, and stable.
This natural tendency results in a cell that naturally wants to perform better for our purposes.
Gaps are larger, heat is lower, and once I get my flow cell built Ill be able to test the production rate in LPM.
Titanium if placed in the anodes position with carbon will stop production completely like aluminum sort of like placing a large diode in an electrical system, when placed in the cathodes position is reacts very well.
I use potassium carbonate rather than more dangerous sodium hydroxide as the electrolyte isnt corrosive, and I can place my hand in the electrolyte with no problems, like placing my hand in tap water.

The end result was in my tests using 6vdc (yes higher than most people use per plate gap) but my gaps were anywhere from .080 to .100" instead of the .0625" or 1/8" like most. The bubbles were massive, and exploded with the same force as nickel.
The trick is after 30 minutes of run time the water was only a little warmer than luke warm. Raising the voltage to 12vdc resulted in a minor improvement of bubble volume, but only started heating up the cell plates.

So by using titanium and carbon the ions produced in the process seem so far to liberate more gas, at a lower heat build up rate, and at a wider plate gap. I was running about 10 to 12amps with a 6 vdc source, and 3 tea spoons of potash per gallon of room temp electrolyte (distilled water).
The ions produces are stable, non poisonous, and the reaction is more energetic than just using a mono plate type design, or other elements. i tested nickel and iron with very good results in reactivity, but unlike carbon and titanium the bubble size was small and clouded the water, whereas the C/Ti plate setup make huge bubbles.

One I get my cell assembled, Im going to run it with 2 plate gaps of about .032" and first at 3vdc per gap, then at 6vdc to see what I need to do next. Ironically closing the plate gap didnt change the amperage, it only lowered the amount of gas produced significantly. I tested the gaps down to .032" but skipped the 1/8" gap test. i didnt have any non conducting material on hand for that test.

Im hoping this will result in a smaller cell, lower voltages, and lower amperage used for the same effect. All the while making the cell safe personally, and evironmentally.

The carbon being in the anodes position keeps the electrode clean, and the precipitants, are non interfering to the cells production. They are heavier than water, but more like suspending a black ash in the water. For all I know at this point they may help the reaction as they precipitate into the electrolyte. They are very easy to clean out vie a simple sponge which could be easily placed in line in the system. Im looking for a particle separator now that could do the job.

I know some of my verbage may be off, but you get the idea. The ions that are produced are stable, the metals used are naturally more reactive to each other, allowing the plate gaps to be wider, with greater (looking) production as the bubbles are massive comparatively with no micro bubbles left in suspension, and little to if any heat build up even when 6vdc12amps is applied to one plate gap ( which is 30 percent wider than standard) for 30 minutes continuous, unlike the normal 2 or so volts typically applied.

I just got a response from a chemistry professor through email so Im deciphering the lingo, and will see if it answers anything. sometimes these professors can be more cryptic than hieroglyphics, or cuneiform writings.


So far all of my instructors, chemists, etc I have talked to think Im really onto something. which is a vote of confidence for me to continue.

[Hydrogenie]

Carbon Naturally wants to lose or gain 4 electrons to become noble. So if we move over to the left 4 rows we land on nickel.
However nickel if it gives up 4 electrons makes an ion that is similar to that of chromium. (bad ju ju) it is a naturally poisonous metal so using it can be bad in these cells. So I looked along the same horizontal row and found that if titanium gives up 4 electrons to carbon the ions produced are similar to that of the noble gasses neon, and argon. Which would make the ions become noble in the electron configuration, which is what they want to do naturally. So by exploiting that natural tendency, The by products (ions) are safe, and stable.
This natural tendency results in a cell that naturally wants to perform better for our purposes.

Hm..now I get it. You are talking about electron configuration. Thank you for the explanation.

[ydeardorff]

Some useful data:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_electrode_potential_(data_page)

An important excerpt from the page link below:
Care must be taken in choosing an electrolyte, since an anion from the electrolyte is in competition with the hydroxide ions to give up an electron. An electrolyte anion with less standard electrode potential than hydroxide will be oxidized instead of the hydroxide, and no oxygen gas will be produced. A cation with a greater standard electrode potential than a hydrogen ion will be reduced in its stead, and no hydrogen gas will be produced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water#Efficiency

This caption above is the wild card I am trying to get answers to from the chemists. Even though potash is safer to use than sodium hydroxide, or potassium hydroxide, it may not be ideally suited to my electrodes. This in turn will possibly throw off the production of the gases. If you using nickle, or SS, each electrode setup could need a different electrolyte to operate at its peak efficiency. Its not about LPM, it about safe, clean, hydrogen production at the highest quality, and quantity happening together at the same time.


And to think my math teacher told me "Algebra" would save my life. She never mentioned Chemistry!

[ydeardorff]

After some communication with a chemist, I think I have a fairly sound hypothesis for why my cell is liberating much larger bubbles than most cells that typically cloud the water, rather than releasing it freely.

Its the carbon ash released from the carbon electrode in the anodes position. This ash is commonly added to batteries to increase conductivity.  This ash is forming multiple conductive chains between the electrodes, each additionally releasing a gas atom. The combined effect adds to more gas released per square inch of electrolyte volume. So as the titanium gets seasoned, and the ash increases the cell may in fact increase its productivity. This may explain the allowance of higher gap distances, and voltage per plate gap with lower heat build up. 
This may also explain why the bubbles are larger, and don't cloud the electrolyte. The gas bubbles are being produced so close together, they are joining together allowing the gas to leave solution rather than be suspended in it.

I have also not sanded, prepped, or bead blasted the titanium surface. This is just a cut, and naked titanium plate. Once the titanium is glass bead blasted, and seasoned, I'm sure the surface area will be increased and increase the production more.

This hypothesis, would also explain why when the gaps are reduced, the production drops. With less allowance for conductive particles in between electrodes, their are less points of conductivity therefore, lower gas production.

Once I finish my cells assembly today Ill fire her up, Ill hopefully be able to test out various plate gaps, to see if what Im thinking is true.
After, some look backs on what I wrote, i realized, my gaps were less than 1/8" so I will try to be more careful in my posts in the future.
Ill be testing the cell at 1/8" through 1/4" in 1/32" intervals. If the gas production continues to climb as the gaps are increased, I'll keep going till i hit a peak and stop there.

[ydeardorff]

I had a minor set back yesterday. My housing plates i found out were porous, so when I filled the cell the housings leaked, not my gaskets. LOL

Ill have to find some new material to build them out of Possibly an old cutting board. Then revisit my test.