Building a self looping "SMOT"

[TinselKoala]

Chet:

Here is a better link with enough description and pictures so that you don't need the lost video clip (from Gyula again.)

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/smotnrgt.htm

I looked at the link carefully.  Quite honestly from time to time I have looked in detail at some JL Naudin projects and I have seen mistakes.  The same thing applies here.  His analysis is bogus because it's flawed in its logic.  Magnetic potential energy comes into play in his setup and he doesn't deal with it so he is toast.  There is nothing there.

MileHigh

Note several things in the JLN description.
1. Where does the 55 mm "measurement" come from? It apparently comes from the hand-made marks a _centimeter_ apart on the tube. Hence it is a "false precision" number. There is no guarantee that the real value is not 54 mm, or 56 mm, or even 51 mm. The measurement system displayed is not capable of producing a real measurement accurate to the millimeter. All we "know" is that the result is between 5 and six centimeters.
2. Where does the slope angle "measurement" of 2.815 degrees come from? I defy anyone here to measure an angle to the thousandth of a degree precision. I think this value must be calculated from the measured ... in millimeters from what ruler?... rise and run of the pipe. Hence, to turn around and use it again in the calculation of "differential height" is circular, in addition to being another case of false precision.
3. The energy values again reflect false precision. Even if the "55 mm" measurement is taken as being fully correct, which is impossible using the displayed marks, you still only have two significant digits of precision and this limits the precision of the energy result. The same is true for all the other measurements cited. What was the precision of the weight measurement of the ball? On many digital scales, a reading of "16 grams" could result from an actual weight of anything between 15.5 to 16.5 grams, or even worse. If he measures accurately and precisely, he could have said 16.0 grams... which would indicate a true value of between 15.95 to 16.05 grams.

When these factors are taken into consideration, Jean-Louis's excess energy disappears into the noise level of experimental error. Let's see the results of twenty or thirty identical runs, with _accurate measurements_, plotted with means and error bars.  Will we ever see such data from an overunity claimant?

But more to the point... will we ever see any proof of elecar's claimed self-running device? I predict not. And when my prediction comes true... I'll bet Chet won't award his prize to me.

[JouleSeeker]

Tinman:
Quote

    A smot dosnt have to loop to show work being done.We would only have to show the ball come to rest outside the smot [i.e., outside any magnetic-field trap],at a higher level than it started at.

Previously I agreed, but then I thought of a potential problem with the above.  It only works IF the hand is not pushing or pulling the ball into place in the first place (even unintentionally), which seems unlikely but is difficult to strictly rule out. 

How can you be sure the ball-placer did not have to push a little to get it to the starting position?

To illustrate:  Consider two disk neos.  One (A) on desk with N up, the other (B) PUSHED onto the first with N down.  Now let go -- and B flies UPWARD, to a higher level than initial height.
It was in pushing the neos together that potential energy was stored -- like squeezing a spring.  Let go, and you get kinetic energy - and in this case, a RISE in height -- all due to PUSHING A & B together with the hand in the first place.

Self-looping for hours gets around the problem of a hand PUSHING the object into place, i.e., storing energy using muscle power. 

Count me in for a donation on your SMOT prize, Chet, but only IF the SMOT achieves self-looping...

[tinman]

Tinman:

Don't worry about the cricket ball attracting everything, and the magnet only attracting metal.  It does not affect the outcome of the experiment.  You are making points but I am not addressing a lot of them because we are talking basic fundamentals here.

If I hold a metal ball in my hand and raise it up in the air, then the gravitational potential energy of the ball relative to the center of the Earth goes up.  If I lower the ball in my hand then the gravitational potential energy of the ball relative to the center of the Earth goes down.

If I hold a metal ball in my hand and move it away from the cricket ball, then the gravitational potential energy of the ball relative to the cricket ball goes up.  If I move the metal ball closer to the cricket ball, then the gravitational potential energy of the ball relative to the cricket ball goes down.

If I hold a metal ball in my hand and move it away from a big magnet, then the magnetic potential energy of the ball relative to the big magnet goes up.  If I move the metal ball closer to the big magnet, then the magnetic potential energy of the ball relative to the big magnet goes down.

Have a look at those three statements and contemplate them.  Each statement is true and makes perfect sense if you get it.  You have to understand the concept of magnetic potential energy being a function of position.  It's exactly the same thing for gravitational potential energy, it's a function of position.

Going back to what I said in my previous posting, "When the ball rolls towards the end of the track in your mind you actually know that it's "rolling downhill" even though your eyes see it rolling up a physical hill."

When you see the ball rolling up the ramp, when you keep in mind all the time that the ball has both gravitational and magnetic potential energy and you can't ignore either of them, then the ball is going down in energy when it rolls up the ramp.

Do you understand this and agree with this?   Anybody that is trying to follow has to get this point to move on to the next step.

MileHigh

MH
While i agree with what you say,it would only be the case if the magnets were pulling the ball up the ramp-magnets arranged in attraction mode(noth and south). At the end of the ramp when the ball drops out,the magnetic pull on the ball would slow its decent speed-thus resulting in a potential energy loss,over gravitational free fall.
But if the magnets are arranged as to push the ball up the ramp-magnets in repulsion mode(like poles facing each other), Then the opposite would be true when the ball drop's. We would have gravitational pull,as well as magnetic push(repulsion) on the ball as it falls-thus increasing the potential energy of the ball.
It is hard to know how it is working(reguards to posted video) when we dont know the orientation of the magnets.
The reason that a loop system is so hard to achieve,is because of the friction created between the ball and track on the corners. Every corner will result in either the ball skiding on the inside rail of the track ,or the outside rail of the track. This is a big loss in energy,and most dont take that into concideration. It's like having the diferential in your car welded up,so as both axle's are locked to each other. Then you try and turn a corner,only to find it requires more power from the engine to do so,as the inside wheel wants to skid around the corner,as it is doing the same RPM as the outside wheel,but the distance it has to travel is less.

[tinman]

Note several things in the JLN description.
1. Where does the 55 mm "measurement" come from? It apparently comes from the hand-made marks a _centimeter_ apart on the tube. Hence it is a "false precision" number. There is no guarantee that the real value is not 54 mm, or 56 mm, or even 51 mm. The measurement system displayed is not capable of producing a real measurement accurate to the millimeter. All we "know" is that the result is between 5 and six centimeters.
2. Where does the slope angle "measurement" of 2.815 degrees come from? I defy anyone here to measure an angle to the thousandth of a degree precision. I think this value must be calculated from the measured ... in millimeters from what ruler?... rise and run of the pipe. Hence, to turn around and use it again in the calculation of "differential height" is circular, in addition to being another case of false precision.
3. The energy values again reflect false precision. Even if the "55 mm" measurement is taken as being fully correct, which is impossible using the displayed marks, you still only have two significant digits of precision and this limits the precision of the energy result. The same is true for all the other measurements cited. What was the precision of the weight measurement of the ball? On many digital scales, a reading of "16 grams" could result from an actual weight of anything between 15.5 to 16.5 grams, or even worse. If he measures accurately and precisely, he could have said 16.0 grams... which would indicate a true value of between 15.95 to 16.05 grams.

When these factors are taken into consideration, Jean-Louis's excess energy disappears into the noise level of experimental error. Let's see the results of twenty or thirty identical runs, with _accurate measurements_, plotted with means and error bars.  Will we ever see such data from an overunity claimant?

But more to the point... will we ever see any proof of elecar's claimed self-running device? I predict not. And when my prediction comes true... I'll bet Chet won't award his prize to me.

Why do small measurement errors always have to go against the device?,why not go in favour of the device?.The reason is because most look for reasons that the device couldnt exibit any form of excess energy,due to known laws of physics.
But any PM device that runs itself,would not break any laws of physics. The reason for this is because a magnet is an energy storage device. It took energy to create the magnet,and energy cannot be destroyed-only transformed. So the PM is nothing more than an energy storage device,one which we havnt yet worked out how to tap into.
So to have a SMOT work in a loop,would not violate any laws of physics. What it would mean,is we have worked out how to use the energy stored within the magnet.
When you work out how much energy was required to align all the magnetic domains within the PM's used to make the looped SMOT,you would find that that energy could indeed keep that ball rolling around the track for a very long time.

[MileHigh]

Tinman:

It's simpler than you are stating.  Remember that it's just a metal ball, and North vs. South for the magnets is not important.  There is no pushing on the metal ball when it falls through the hole ever.  There is no such thing as repulsion vs. attraction to make the metal ball go up the ramp.  In other words the metal ball is never pushed up the ramp, it is always pulled up the ramp.  You are mistakenly thinking about pushing vs. pulling and polarities when they don't apply here.

What is the double magnet array that goes up the ramp?  You can simplify this a lot because we are looking at the energy issues here.  We are one step removed from looking at the magnets themselves.  The only thing we are concerned about is what the magnets do in terms of how the ball changes in energy because of their presence.  The two magnet arrays for purposes of this experiment and for purposes of looking at the energy dynamics are reduced to something very simple.  The two arrays are reduced to a big magnetic blob that produces a big spread out field.  In other words all of the individual magnets together look like some amorphous magnetic field blob. That's not important, it's what the blob does that's important.   The blob is no different from the big magnet I referenced to in my three examples for potential energy.

Here is all you need to know:  The metal ball runs up the track because it's attracted to the back of the magnetic field blob.  That means that at the end the track you have a "center of attraction."  The center of attraction is like the big magnet.

The center of attraction is where the metal ball would go if you placed it at the end of the track.   Assume that there is no hole for the metal ball to pass through.  The metal ball ends up at Ground Zero for the "center of attraction" or you could call it the "center of the sticky point."

Again, I will repeat.  Forget about the whole experiment.  You have the v-track perfectly level on the table with the two rows of magnets on each side.   You let the ball go and the ball moves to the opposite end of the track and might oscillate back an forth a bit and then the ball will eventually stop and rest in the middle of the "sticky spot."

Think of it like this:  You have a thin wood table and you put a magnet under the table surface.  A metal ball rolls around on the table top and gets attracted to the magnet and stops right above the magnet.  The metal ball is attracted to the magnet under the table and won't move and it's as simple as that.  This is the same process in action.

So, you have a metal ball and it's in front of a "blob" consisting of the magnetic field pattern created by the individual magnets.  The metal ball races to the opposite end of the "blob" and stabilizes at the center of the "sticky spot."

So what's happening here:  As the metal ball rolls along the ramp it is going down in magnetic potential energy.  When it gets to the center of the "sticky spot" we say that the ball is now at the bottom of a magnetic potential energy well.  The ball has "fallen" to the bottom of a well and can go no "lower."  The ball is now at its minimum magnetic potential energy and it will not move away from that spot.  (Think of the magnet under the table.)  To get the magnet to move away from that spot you have to add some energy from an external source, like your hand.

You can think of the ball as being at the bottom of a round bowl and the walls of the bowl are the the same as the walls of the magnetic potential energy well.

So, going back to your response to my previous posting, if you get what I am talking about you will realize that you are getting mixed up in details and the details you are concerned about don't count for this discussion about the magnetic potential energy of the ball with respect to its position along the track.

Can you see what I am talking about?   Going back to the actual experiment clip with the two tracks, do you understand that when the ball rolls up the track it is going down in magnetic potential energy and at the end of the track there is the bottom of the magnetic potential energy well?  If the ball reaches this point and it has no kinetic energy, then ball is simply stuck in the well and will not move.

Again, please forget about the hole in the ramp and the dropping, I am not talking about that at all.

MileHigh