Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[TinselKoala]

By integrating the waveform we see that there is nearly the same area below the zero volt line as there is above it. There is only slightly less area below the zero volt level as above it.

[tinman]

Yes, that's right.

Here's another shot I just did. This is with a small pot-core that was donated to the lab by a friendly researcher. I wound 10 turns of #22 magnet wire for a "primary" then 30 turns of #27 magnet wire for a "secondary" on the little bobbin, then assembled the pot-core around it and clamped it together with a #4-40 screw and nut. I'm using a 33 ohm load made of three carbon 100ohm resistors in parallel. The shot is taken across the load.
The FG drive is at 5 percent ON duty cycle and -2, +10 volts.

I don't usually like to show clipped waveforms but here I'm doing it so that the negative voltage shows up well. The true peaks are at 29 volts positive.

This is great TK-thanks. An actual device showing a similar effect.
Now,if we take your's and poynts scope shots,and compare them with mine,we can see the difference in the current line. I have all my windings incased in core material,where as you have yours on a spool inside a pot core. So you would have an air gap-correct?.

My scope shot below shows the yellow trace across the outer secondary,and the blue trace across the inner secondary-both with same value loads. If i disconect the inner coil load,i can get that outer coil trace to follow what you and poynt show-a decline in current through the cycle. But i am interested in this(almost) non changing current value throughout the 95% off time-as can be seen in my scope shot below-->blue trace. I can now get this to happen with any resistive load value.

[poynt99]

This is the reason for all these test,and check's,as i need to know where the full 100% during the off time is coming from. We have eliminated the scope,and we know there is nothing wrong with the transformer as a whole-->and im preaty sure the SG will not be delivering that much extra power to the system,as we are using fet's.. At very best,the FG can only deliver 60mW through that 100 ohm resistor. But the gate on the fets(unlike a transistor) work on voltage with very little current required.

I DO understand where you are coming from Brad; not sure why you keep saying that I am missing something?

Anyway, conceptually, I think you are thinking along the wrong path on this forward/reverse power thingy. The DMM may indicate 0 average current in the load, but this means nothing when it comes to power measurements on the output coil. It does not mean that 0 power is being used by the system. It simply means that there is as much positive as there is negative voltage and current.

Here is a scenario that exactly duplicates this effect you are seeing with your setup: Take a power resistor and apply it across your grid power. Insert your DC DMM as before and measure the average current or voltage. Both will measure 0, correct? But the resistor is heating, so how can that be? Well, it simply means that for half the cycle you have a positive voltage and positive current (positive power), and for the other half cycle, you have a negative voltage and a negative current (positive power). So in the end both cycles contribute positive power to the load.

Your setup is indicating the same thing, only your wave forms are not symmetrical. Notwithstanding, the power in both portions of the cycle still appear to be equal. So, now you can see that it's not that big of a deal, agreed?

[poynt99]

Regarding the seemingly-continuous negative current and voltage thingy; I have already touched on that, but here are a few more words that hopefully will help you understand.

ALL manner of setups will show a decreasing voltage/current in the negative portion of the cycle when the primary is switched OFF. It may appear to you to be precisely constant, but I can assure you that it is not. What makes it APPEAR to be constant is the fact that the inductance of the L2 coil is relatively large, and it has a very large Q factor (high inductance, low resistance), hence it also has a very long time constant, tau. Tau is L/R for inductors.

Please understand this is normal, and there is nothing odd happening in your coil. You are simply seeing the effects of a very long tau on the output coil, L2.

.99

[tinman]

I DO understand where you are coming from Brad; not sure why you keep saying that I am missing something?


Here is a scenario that exactly duplicates this effect you are seeing with your setup: Take a power resistor and apply it across your grid power. Insert your DC DMM as before and measure the average current or voltage. Both will measure 0, correct? But the resistor is heating, so how can that be? Well, it simply means that for half the cycle you have a positive voltage and positive current (positive power), and for the other half cycle, you have a negative voltage and a negative current (positive power). So in the end both cycles contribute positive power to the load.

Your setup is indicating the same thing, only your wave forms are not symmetrical. Notwithstanding, the power in both portions of the cycle still appear to be equal. So, now you can see that it's not that big of a deal, agreed?

Anyway, conceptually, I think you are thinking along the wrong path on this forward/reverse power thingy. The DMM may indicate 0 average current in the load, but this means nothing when it comes to power measurements on the output coil. It does not mean that 0 power is being used by the system. It simply means that there is as much positive as there is negative voltage and current.

This i know,and no,im not thinking along the wrong path. This is exactly what i am trying to show-an equal amount of power flowing in both directions--this is an AC power with current and voltage offsets. This is why i say that some are missing the big picture here when all data i have shown is being missed or misunderstood. So i will try again-although i have now posted the scope shot 3 time's.

So from the begining.
The complete core has 4 sepperate coils. 1 is what we will call L1 outer. This is the 20 turn heavy gauge wire(.8mm) around the outside of the core. Right along side that we have another coil of 30 turns around the outside of the core-this one we will call L2 outer. This is my viewing coil for L1.
In the center of the core we have another two coils rapped around a ferrite toroid core.Both are 30 turns. 1 is .55mm wire-->this one we will call L1 inner,and the other is .61mm wire-->this one we will call L2 inner.

So once again,refering to the scope shot below.
The yellow trace is L2 outer with a 2.2 ohm CSR in series with the resistive load.The scope is across the CSR.
The blue trace is L1 inner with a 2.2 ohm CSR in series with the same value resistive load.The scope is across the CSR.
L1 switches on,and we see the current peak on both CSR's-this is normal. BUT,when L1 switches off ,we see the yellow trace give a quick reverse current kick,then ring for a short time before flat lineing. Now,being wound around the core over the top of L1,one would think that if there is current still flowing through L1 outer,and a magnetic field still collapsing around L1 outer,then L2 outer still should show current flowing through it-correct. But we see no current flow through L2 outer for most of the off time.
We then look at the blue trace-L1 inner,and we can see clear as mud that the current continues to flow through L1 inner for the whole off time part of the cycle. Not only dose current flow for the whole cycle,it is almost a constant value for the full off time period of L1.

So things to be answered.
1-why do we not see a current flow through L2 outer if a current is still flowing ,and  the magnetic field is still collapsing around L1 outer-when L2 outer is wound right next to,and along side L1 outer.
2-If there is no magnetic field still collapsing around L1 outer(as L2 outer would suggest),then why is there current still flowing through L1 inner?.

Other things to consider.
L1 inner is further away from L1 outer than L2 outer is.
In order for the magnetic field to get to what is considered to be the better core(the ferrite toroid that L1 inner and L2 inner are wound around),the magnetic field first has to travel through about 10mm of the devcon steel putty, which is being considered to be a poor core material.
So can the field travel through 10mm of poor core material before getting to L1 inner better than it can getting to L2 outer-which is wound next to,and over L1 outer?.
This seems a big ask to me.

So poynt,if you are going to sim my transformer,then you will have to do it as mine is done. this means you need to have two windings on your L1 inductor-one as your primary,and one as the secondary. This secondary must be of the same number of turns as what would be your L2-->your second output coil/inductor. then you must place the same resistive load on the secondary that is wound with your primary as you do on your L2. Once this is done,you need to be able to show no current flow through your secondary that is wound around your primary coil -L1,BUT at the same time,you have to show an almost steady current flow through your L2 inductor-as indicated in my scope shot. Below is your circuit that i have shown where L2 outer is to be wound.
You will then have my setup,and you may change inductance values as you see fit,as i cannot give you any ATM. I am going on the hunt for an inductance meter tomorrow,but i have my doubts i will find one in this city.