Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[MileHigh]

I am not making any measurement requests of you, I am only lamenting that you are not providing any data for measurements that you already made and quoted to me.

I thought about your original experimental goal and I think I know what the true setup would be to make the electric field measurement test.  You would have to mold a single toroid with the inner coil suspended inside the core itself.  There would have to be a decent gap between the coil turns so that the core compound would completely fill the gaps.  Then you would have a single magnetically integral core, not a compound structure that consists of two separate coaxial cores like you have now.  So you could do something like have a light matchstick frame that supports the inner coil in the right place while you pour the core compound into the mold.

Then once that solidifies then wrap the primary and the outer secondary on the toroid.   Then, if you made pure EMF measurements on the inner and outer secondaries while driving with the primary, you should see the inner secondary outputting less EMF than the outer secondary.  The key thing here is that you do not put a load on the inner or outer secondaries.  You just want to make pure EMF measurements with no current flowing to measure the electric field strength.  If you put a load on the inner secondary, then you throw a monkey wrench at the setup and how flux flows inside the core due to current flowing in the inner secondary is another big question.  Just pure EMF measurements on both secondaries will tell you all you need to know about the electric field generation inside and on the outside of the core.

Going back to what you actually built with the two essentially independent coaxial toriidal cores, with one inside the other, as previously posted there are all sorts of complications and factors that come into play when you look at that design.  However, it presents you the experimenter with something fun to play with and test and try to figure out what makes it tick.  I am certainly not asking you to make measurements on it, it's all up to you, but I certainly think it is interesting.  It could be a very useful exercise to experiment on it and explain how it works.

[MileHigh]

Quoting myself from posting #5671:

But then if you energize the primary with AC, then it looks like at first glance that the red core will take all of the AC flux generated by primary coil and the blue core will have an opposite AC flux flow going through it because of Lenz's law.

Nope, on second thought this doesn't sound right at all.  This is my corrected version:

If you energize the primary with AC, then it looks like at first glance that the red core will take all of the AC flux generated by primary coil and the blue core will have no flux going through it and do nothing.  Lenz's Law simply doesn't come into play for the blue core because there is no flux activity inside the circle defined by the outer cross sectional edge of the blue core.

[minnie]

  Baby's progressing.

[minnie]

   Oh dear, made a mess of that one!
    Sorry, can you delete images?
     Done it.

[partzman]

I understand that you are trying to help but this kind of research can be done at a much more basic level, and some of the measurements you are suggesting are extraneous and it's doubtful that they will have any value.  The start and finish of each winding and the winding directions are almost irrelevant.  The inductance measurements are incidental, and the series inductance measurements both bucking and adding don't have any relevance to this experiment.  The inter-winding capacitance is also not relevant because for starters we are not really concerned with how this device acts at very high frequencies.

In general, there is no point in making measurements if you can't do anything with that data or apply it in some way to advance the investigations you are doing in your experiment.

{snip}

So the real exercise here is to try and figure out where precisely the flux is flowing for different test conditions.   You can play with load resistor values for the two secondaries and make voltage and power measurements.  It's very tricky to figure out what is taking place in each of the two cores, but with some measurements and applying your knowledge you should be able to figure out what is going on.  That is the real exercise here, most of the measurements you are suggesting are window dressing that can't be used in any practical manner.

{snip}

One think for sure, is that nothing non-standard is happening.  This is just another version of a motor speeding up under load where you are "sure" that the motor is "supposed" to slow down under load.  You are falling victim to your own preconceptions without doing the full investigation.  When you actually do the full investigation your measurements and analysis show you that indeed, the motor was supposed to speed up under load.

MileHigh,

OK, one point at a time! First, Tinman asked for any suggestions for tests of which I obliged. He is certainly welcome to ignore or do whatever he feels is right as far as I'm concerned without any ill feelings on my part. As you say, I'm just trying to help.

Everything I have asked for or suggested has a reason. Overall I am trying to document and model the magnetic circuit tinman has demonstrated. If this is done accurately, much analysis can be done without having the device in hand and answers may be derived.

Perhaps you've forgotten or are unaware that the mutual induction M between two coils quantifies the lenz interaction between those coils. Taking the inductance measurements of at least one primary and the secondary as requested could be revealing.

My current research is in magneto electric induction and thus the reason for the capacitance measurements.  Yes the test frequency involved is low but we can only assume that each inherent capacitance in the assembly is in the pfd range has no effect on operation. I can guess from experience however that the bifilar wound primary has an inter-wind capacitance of ~5nfd and shouldn't affect circuit operation but what about the capacitance between the teflon covered secondary and the outer casting?

In tinman's post #5642, scope shot 1 reveals that the secondary open circuit voltage is higher than the primary which should not be the case in a 1:1:1 standard transformer. It is only during the relatively flat top portion of the inner secondary as shown by the blue trace that current is conducting thru the secondary winding to the led.

partzman