Open Systems

[tinman]

Now we are starting to see what open systems are.
We can replicate the sun experiment at home. If we take say a 5 watt 12 volt incandescent bulb,that 5 watts of power is transformed into light and heat energy. If we now place solar pannels around that light bulb,and place a load on the output from those solar pannels,the bulb will still emit the same amount of light and heat for that 5 watts of power-->the solar pannels place no load on the closed system(the light bulb and battery). So all of that 5 watts is accounted for by way of heat and light emissions from the bulb,and we can now draw power from the solar pannels without cost or reflection on the closed system.

In fact MarkE,could this not be seen as a system that puts out more energy than it consume's?
All of the P/in from the 12 volt battery(the 5 watts) is accounted for by way of both heat and light output from the bulb,and any power output from the solar pannels is excess. We know that loading the solar pannels will not reflect on the P/in to the light bulb,nor will it effect the light and heat output from the light bulb.

[MarkE]

In fact MarkE,could this not be seen as a system that puts out more energy than it consume's?
All of the P/in from the 12 volt battery(the 5 watts) is accounted for by way of both heat and light output from the bulb,and any power output from the solar pannels is excess. We know that loading the solar pannels will not reflect on the P/in to the light bulb,nor will it effect the light and heat output from the light bulb.

Why?  Draw an imaginary boundary anywhere that you like and count the energy in and the energy out.  Do you find that you can draw such a boundary and get more out than in?  You do not get to count just the power coming out across some boundary.  And you have to use opposite signs for energy crossing a boundary in one direction for energy crossing that same boundary in the opposite direction.

[tinman]

Why?  Draw an imaginary boundary anywhere that you like and count the energy in and the energy out.  Do you find that you can draw such a boundary and get more out than in?  You do not get to count just the power coming out across some boundary.  And you have to use opposite signs for energy crossing a boundary in one direction for energy crossing that same boundary in the opposite direction.

Well i have no idea what that jibberish is with boundaries
It couldnt be simpler. Energy in is our 5 watts to the bulb,energy out has to be equal to that 5 watts-->unless you have a way to destroy energy?Our 5 watts of power flowing into the light bulb is converted to heat and light that equals the 5 watts-is it not?. And would the solar panels in any way change the amount of heat and light emmited from that bulb when a load is placed across those solar panels-->i think not. Would the load placed across those solap panel's reflect apon the energy source that is driving the light bulb-->i think not.

There you go,worlds first OU circuit-->couldnt be simpler lol

[MarkE]

Well i have no idea what that jibberish is with boundaries

That could be a real problem.  If you have trouble with boundaries then it is likely that you have problems accounting for energy, which you appear to have demonstrated above.

It couldnt be simpler. Energy in is our 5 watts to the bulb,energy out has to be equal to that 5 watts-->unless you have a way to destroy energy? Our 5 watts of power flowing into the light bulb is converted to heat and light that equals the 5 watts-is it not?.

That's correct, you draw an imaginary boundary around the light bulb, and the light bulb having negligible energy storage on average gets 5W in electrical and emits 5W out as heat and light.

And would the solar panels in any way change the amount of heat and light emmited from that bulb when a load is placed across those solar panels-->i think not.

Of course not.  So now you can either draw a boundary around the solar panels alone, and find that the energy again balances, or you can draw a boundary around both the light bulb and the solar panels.  Or you can draw a boundary around the load connected to the solar panels, or the load and the solar panels, or the load, the solar panels, and the light bulb.  In each case you should be able to account for all of the energy and find that what comes out is the difference of the input and what goes into or comes out of internal energy storage.

Would the load placed across those solap panel's reflect apon the energy source that is driving the light bulb-->i think not.

Certainly not to any extent that we would bother trying to account.

There you go,worlds first OU circuit-->couldnt be simpler lol

Perhaps such an idea might make it past the accountants at Enron.  It would not make it past accountants much anywhere else.

[tinman]

 

That could be a real problem.  If you have trouble with boundaries then it is likely that you have problems accounting for energy, which you appear to have demonstrated above.

Lol,sounds like your boundaries are a mythical creature that you have invented. What you mean to say is-->we will continue to shift the goal post until such time that we make sure your device dose not exibit any sort of excess energy. This boundary you speak off would be between the two(loosly coupled) systems,as you call it. This boundary would also be between the one system that has no effect on the other,regardless of wether it's there in opperation or not(which also is the same boundary as the first).If you disagree with that Mark,then place your boundary,and explain as to why it's there in that position. If you cannot,then please refrain from continually stating that I have the problem with accounting for energy.

That's correct, you draw an imaginary boundary around the light bulb, and the light bulb having negligible energy storage on average gets 5W in electrical and emits 5W out as heat and light.

This boundary would be around system one as a whole-->the battery,conecting wires and globe is system one.This system is running at 100% efficiency when all energy in and out is accounted for.

So now you can either draw a boundary around the solar panels alone, and find that the energy again balances, or you can draw a boundary around both the light bulb and the solar panels.[/quote]
No. As i stated above,this boundary would be around each system as a whole. So now lets say our load on the solar panel is a 100 ohm resistor.
So boundary one is around system one(the battery,wires and light bulb)
The second boundary is around our open system(open from that of the first system),the solar panel and resistive load(100 ohm resistor). These two boundaries are set-->applying a load on,or  removing the second system(system two)has no effect on system one.

Of course not.

Well whats the chances of that--> an accord

So there you have your boundaries Mark.
Boundary 1-is around system one. This system is running at 100% efficiency,where the energy in = the energy out. Net gain is 0.

Boundary 2-is around system 2(the solar panel,conecting wires and 100 ohm resistor)This boundary was set due to the fact that this system has no effect on system 1,regardless of wether it's there or not. This system is open to system one,and thus a sepperate boundary must be set around this system-->but im sure you would disagree with this!some how!