Rosch taking orders on OU Bouyancy device.

[Pirate88179]

Pirate I was referring to over speed events in aircraft under the speed of sound, even without approaching Mach 1 many older planes became almost uncontrollable and just continued to dive into the ground it is well documented, and spoken by the pilots themselves. The controls become so heavy
the pilot cannot pull out of the dive in time. So a lack of control due to over speed but no breaking up of the plane until ground strike.

I agree, that is true.  What I was trying to say was, not only do the control forces for the pilots (back then prior to hydraulics and computer controls) get heavier and heavier, way before Mach 1 shock waves move around the airframe also causing control ability problems.  Yeager, in his books, said he could see shock waves on his wings when diving his Mustang wide open, and that was probably just under 600 mph.

The early dive bombers had the problem you speak about.  My 2nd flight instructor told me many tales of guys he knew not being able to pull out in time after dropping the bombs.

Bill

[tinman]

Pirate I was referring to over speed events in aircraft under the speed of sound, even without approaching Mach 1 many older planes became almost uncontrollable and just continued to dive into the ground it is well documented, and spoken by the pilots themselves. The controls become so heavy
the pilot cannot pull out of the dive in time. So a lack of control due to over speed but no breaking up of the plane until ground strike.

The guys(some of who are still alive and well today )who couldnt handle a cessna well enough to get there licence managed to handle a 757 and 767"s at way over Vmo-and Mmo speeds with no problem Farmhand lol. MarkE will tell you that the target's were huge-couldnt miss them,but last time i went up in a plane,things seem'd really small at just 2000ft. But these guys hit them all spot on traveling at way over Vmo speed(1 at 570MPH) with no problem at all. one even managed to make a 330* turn while diving at over 470MPH,and to this day,every trained pilot that has tried has not been able to pull that off in a 757-->but the guys with the box cutters nailed it.

[Pirate88179]

The guys(some of who are still alive and well today )who couldnt handle a cessna well enough to get there licence managed to handle a 757 and 767"s at way over Vmo-and Mmo speeds with no problem Farmhand lol. MarkE will tell you that the target's were huge-couldnt miss them,but last time i went up in a plane,things seem'd really small at just 2000ft. But these guys hit them all spot on traveling at way over Vmo speed(1 at 570MPH) with no problem at all. one even managed to make a 330* turn while diving at over 470MPH,and to this day,every trained pilot that has tried has not been able to pull that off in a 757-->but the guys with the box cutters nailed it.

Brad:

What you might be missing is, when they took flight training here in the states, and this should have been a HUGE red flag, they did not want to learn how to land.  Just fly.  No take offs, no landings...just fly.  Flying is pretty easy when you eliminate those other two events.  If you had a lot of hours to learn how to just fly...you could have done what they did.

Bill

[Farmhand]

Tinman the point is that once the plane is pointed in a direction and accelerated it does not take much control.

And I did say that the plane could well have been remotely controlled by a remote pilot who would of course be very skilled.

In fact once the plane was pointed at the building and reached an over speed condition then missing the building would be
more difficult than keeping the plane in a direct route.

..

[TinselKoala]

The one part of the whole 911 conspiracy airplane story that I can agree with is the Pentagon maneuver. This is indeed an exceedingly difficult one to pull off and it does seem improbable that someone who was essentially a non-pilot could pull it off the first time, even though he may have practiced it a lot on computer-based flight sim programs.

(For many years in my life I made my living as a sailplane flight instructor, tow pilot, and I gave airshow aerobatic demonstrations in heavy sailplanes like the Lark IS-28B2, culminating in a low pass at just below Vne, in ground effect, finished by a pullup, circle-to-spot-landing maneuver. The Pentagon maneuver, in a large heavy airliner, is precision flying of the highest order. Beginner's Luck? It's a mystery to me, all right.)