Gravity powered water generator

[Brutus]

I am not disputing your analysis.   I will have to work on that a while.   It looks like sound science.  By the way I thank you for the extra math assist.  But just for simplification your saying that if I start with say 1.000 lbs of force and if it takes  100 lbs. of that force to run a water rope to maintain the filling of the  top bucket in time for the next buckets approach and, say fifty lbs. to run the gears and whatever else is needed to run the generator that I will never have enough energy to keep the assembly running. And no amount of starting weight would matter.   I can follow how  you're saying, if the assembly is maintaining a consistant flow of water that always keeps the same amount of water in the buckets the assembly must run down  because your math says I have losses.  Ok , as it must,  then I still say supplement with something like  solar or wind to charge a battery to run, as an example, a secondary centifugal type pump for the extra water.  Or maybe a weighted geared pulley system with a tall pole like a flag pole to run an extra rope pump.  Several methods are available.  This would still simi- self maintain the process.  I still think it is a sound idea.  Just needs a little tweaking.  This was the reason I put the idea out here, to get others to discuss and give their thoughts and ideas to it.  To maybe find answers or simply to accept something as not workable.    Also, on an additional side note.   I would add an evaporative cooler type water supplier with cut off  float to maintain the water level in tank.    Another thought.  Would, if you do like some of the others here at Overunity are attempting to do, by extending the weight,( or in my case buckets),  out farther on the down (weighted) side, give you extra force by being farther out from center?  Maybe that would help.   
So, as I understand you,  I need to put in enough extra water(energy) to, at minimum, maintain or negate the losses of the system. I appreciate your feed back and if you have any suggestions as to how to make this work please do.   My wife says she's not cranking any handles. 

[sm0ky2]

lol, I don't blame her

here's the short answer:   two buckets, one tied to each end of a rope. strung over a pulley.
fill one up with more water and it will fall, raising the other.
fill them both equally, and they will balance like a scale.

this is because gravity imparts the same amount of force over the same distance on two equal masses.
now - consider that the water being pumped to the top is the same amount of water that is falling down with the buckets.
The force of gravity must be overcome by the pump. regardless of what type of pump is used, this is the energy required to lift that much water.
Energy is equal to the mass times the force of gravity times the height (E=mgh)
the water, once lifted, holds that same amount of potential energy (E=mgh). The same energy that can be regained by allowing it to fall.
By allowing an object (in this case a bucket of water) to fall through the gravitational field, you are converting the potential energy
     - into kinetic energy, but it is still the same energy. (E=mgh)
If you then use this kinetic energy to turn the pump rope, it will lift the same amount of water back to the top.
With zero losses in the system, the water falling will lift the same amount of water back up to the top.

The cumulative losses from every part of the system will deduct from this available kinetic energy. Most of this will be frictional heat loss.
but it will be visible from the very first test model you assemble. The amount of water pumped back up to the top will be slightly less then it was the first cycle
and even less the 3rd or 4th cycles.

I recommend building a test rig. the math scales up perfectly from the tiny to the very large, with little variances below the 10 meter height.


if you elongate one side of the bucket chain, or use some odd-shaped elliptical track, or otherwise alter the distance from the weight to the axis of rotation
with the intent to increase leverage or torque.........
You are overlooking one very important factor - by changing the track the buckets ride on, you are also changing the distance traveled, and the time it takes to do so.

[Brutus]

OK,  I get that the assembly as shown will not run itself due to the losses inherent in the system.  My argument still is that if I have enough water weight in the buckets "initially" to run the entire assembly, including the generator," before" water is added to sustain its motion, then, it seems to me, I just need to continue the addition, into the assembly,  of enough water to keep the same weight being used as at the first.  Which should, as I see it, continue the operation as began.  I now know, thanks to your impute, that this additional maintaining weight MUST be from an outside source.  So my thought is this.  If I have a 5kw generator being driven by the initial weight of the assembly then why could I not use the  already available generated power and tap it to run an additional pump system?  Surely there are pumps that can run a sufficient enough supply of needed extra water to keep the system sustainable.   Like you said, I need to build it to see the results you are talking about.  It just seems feasible.  I saw on U-tube the Wilkinson assembly of a 45 lb. weight on a pulley driving a step up assembly of bicycle sprockets he could use to run at the speed needed to operate a generator.    I know 45lbs. only ran the step up sprockets but the idea there that the losses to run the sprockets were not that drastic.  Only the weight needed to run the generator would be a large factor.   My beginning need , when I started this posting, was to find out how much weight it would take to turn a 5 or 8kw generator through a step up array of gears.  This was what I would necessarily need to know to even begin to build the assembly. That is with out trial and error.  To equate the needed weight to the horse power needed to turn the generator at running speed.  Say 750 or 1500 rpm or whatever was needed for that particular model.  This not being a simple equation due to the several small to large and large to small gears in the step up assembly. To reiterate, the assembly, with the addition of a secondary pump system, in my opinion , should work as depicted.  As long as it maintains the initial water force which drives it.   I thank you for your interest and analysis.  You have obvious greater knowledge than I and I respect that.  There is also much truth in your comments.   This will give others who read these posts a more complete and better understanding of the rational, science and mathematics involved.  Which was one of my main purposes.  Now they can make up their own minds and make a more reasoned judgment call.   But, I have picked the apple and want to see how it tastes.  Worms or not.
       I found what one could use as an idea for the second pump.   This is already patented but the idea is similar.  Just add a second set of buckets aligned with the original ones to double the weight or adjust flow to need.  Also a couple of ideas for other pumps.  There are many to choose from.   

[Brutus]

To those who are looking at this as a possible project.  I want to add a few comments.  I have thought about how to minimize the guess work of how many and how big the  buckets would be have to be to achieve the "initial" weight to drive the assembly (how many gallons per bucket times number of buckets = needed total  starting weight).  I suggest building the step-up assembly and installing the  generator first and then hooking up a temporary drive cable pulley system to it.   Such as the U-tube( Wilkinson generator)  model. This temporary pulley system will be used so that you can add, in graduations, more and more weight to the pulley to find out how much weight will be needed to run the complete assembly.  This way you can start the build of the bucket conveyor with a more acurate number.  As an example, if you use a five gallon bucket at 8.34 lbs. per gallon then each bucket will have 41.7 lbs. of water weight.   As  there are many generators to choose from, it has to be that you need to start this way in order to find the proper weight to run that particular generator at the speed needed with the step up assembly and the adjustible volume rope pump combination.  The weight you need is going to be at best (Approximate).  If you look at the large Rosch generator you can see a basic construction idea already built for the conveyor, the step-up gears and a generator.  His design pumps air into the buckets from the bottom.   Mine pumps water into the buckets at the top using a rope pump and, thanks to smOKy2's imput, I have added a necessary supplemental water pump run by the generator.  On looking back at previous post I don't think you need to add a second bucket assembly just leave room in initial buckets for more water coming in from the secondary pump to maintain weight.    I have looked at many different conveyor designs and  would suggest you also look closely at them.  I see a lot of weight in the buckets and just chains links with small hook up attachments like on light weight applications may not be appropriate.  I am thinking an elongated chain  system would work better as it has a greater holding ability.  Just depends on how larger you plan on going with your unit.  Maybe just a conveyor belt with buckets attached might be good also.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23qGQlcDLtI (Wilkinson idea).   http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Thrust_Kinetic_Generator_by_Rosch_Innovations_AG  ( assembly possibility)

[Brutus]

I am seeking funding to build this device so If your interested in helping further this idea to completion I would be very grateful for any help given in this regard.  I have started a Go Fund Me Campaign to help accomplish this at this location. Thank you for your help.  https://www.gofundme.com/dashboard-gravity-powered-water-generator-share-getpanel-pan