Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[nilrehob]

Hi All,

I have written about this CLL system in my 4th paper at:

https://sites.google.com/site/nilrehob/home/elementary-physics

named 4-increasing-magnetic-flux.pdf. Increasing magnetic flux in the inductance domain is the same as increasing charge in the capacitance domain which I show in my video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZcvOWSXcbU which in turn is the same as increasing momentum in the mass domain which I wrote about in my 2nd paper called 2-increasing-momentum-or-charge.pdf.

It is really simple and I love the way you guys have proved it!

You can think of it as a small mass colliding elastically with a big mass. In your case the inductors are the masses and the capacitor is the spring that makes the colission elastic. If the big mass is standing still before the collision, as the coil with hi inductance is with no current, the sum of the absolute value of the momentums increase, in this case the sum of the absolute value of the magnetic fluxs increase.

In the video above I show it for two capacitors and a coil. One big cap with no charge and one small cap discharging through a coil to make the collision elastic. Its the same thing, the sum of the absolute value of the charges increase.

/Hob

[woopy]

Hi Guyla

You are correct

Here some pics

your X1 is pic 1 and 2
your X2 is pic 3 and 4
your X3 is pic 5 and 6
your X4 is pic 7 and 8

Hope this helps

Laurent

[MoRo]

I wish I was coming to new understandings however I'm still having problems grasping the terminology.


A lot can happen in 24 hours of missed reading... I notice many are off topic. Tinman - thanks for trying to explain how a fluxgate can make a motor work to me. I'm so new to that terminology though, I'm hoping someone can break it down for me in simple step by step terms.


This is what Luc is trying to do right? Luc is not taking the spike from a coil on a rotor and then putting it to another coil to make it spin faster. He is using a fluxgate to make a motor work. However, I've looked up fluxgate and still can not figure out how to make a motor work with one.


So, putting the spike to a "high voltage coil" makes the coil stay magnetized longer which can electromagnetically hold onto a load longer, which has it's own uses, but I can't think of how to make a fluxgate make a motor work. Perhaps stronger at slower speeds? More torque? Or am I completely off and is what Laurent is doing exactly what you are after?


Can someone point me in the right direction as I believe this is the topic?

SUBJECT: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficient motor using Fly-back

By 'more efficient' we mean: 'over-unity'; COP > 1
By 'using Fly-back' we mean: by using the energy received back from a primary coil after the initial source energizing said primary coil has been switched off.

Problems to overcome: how to best use the energy received back.

The terms:
Yes, understanding what is actually happening in a circuit can be difficult to understand. We can't see electricity. Our understanding comes from observable phenomena. This requires experimentation and deep thought. Many diagrams do not reflect what is actually happening. I myself try to visualize what is actually happening at any given moment on an atomic level with any given section of a circuit, including the connecting wires. So, for example, I don't really like the words 'current' or 'flow'. these words imply that something is flowing through the wire. I don't believe that assumption to be correct, because the wires are solid. To best explain what is observed I believe there is simply 'voltage pressure' which causes a phase change away from normal in every single atom of a conductor that is in-between a potential difference. Apply voltage pressure one way and the atoms push back (resist). The resistance is exposed as a polarized field around the conductor,  Shut off the voltage quickly and the atoms snap back to neutral phase quickly, perhaps even 'ringing' a little like a stiff spring. The greater the voltage the grater the atom goes out-of-phase, until you apply enough voltage to blow the atom itself off.

My other observations:
Luc's microwave core is more efficient. Why? because the copper windings don't just have an iron core passing through the middle of it, but the windings actually have soft iron material all the way around it creating a magnetic loop when the cover plate is placed on top. So the core surface area (the area against the core windings) is very important in the design of the electromagnet to achieve greater power from the available area.

[gotoluc]

SUBJECT: Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficient motor using Fly-back

By 'more efficient' we mean: 'over-unity'; COP > 1
By 'using Fly-back' we mean: by using the energy received back from a primary coil after the initial source energizing said primary coil has been switched off.

Problems to overcome: how to best use the energy received back.

The terms:
Yes, understanding what is actually happening in a circuit can be difficult to understand. We can't see electricity. Our understanding comes from observable phenomena. This requires experimentation and deep thought. Many diagrams do not reflect what is actually happening. I myself try to visualize what is actually happening at any given moment on an atomic level with any given section of a circuit, including the connecting wires. So, for example, I don't really like the words 'current' or 'flow'. these words imply that something is flowing through the wire. I don't believe that assumption to be correct, because the wires are solid. To best explain what is observed I believe there is simply 'voltage pressure' which causes a phase change away from normal in every single atom of a conductor that is in-between a potential difference. Apply voltage pressure one way and the atoms push back (resist). The resistance is exposed as a polarized field around the conductor,  Shut off the voltage quickly and the atoms snap back to neutral phase quickly, perhaps even 'ringing' a little like a stiff spring. The greater the voltage the grater the atom goes out-of-phase, until you apply enough voltage to blow the atom itself off.

Very good

My other observations:
Luc's microwave core is more efficient. Why? because the copper windings don't just have an iron core passing through the middle of it, but the windings actually have soft iron material all the way around it creating a magnetic loop when the cover plate is placed on top. So the core surface area (the area against the core windings) is very important in the design of the electromagnet to achieve greater power from the available area.

Excellent!... glad someone has their thinking cap on.

To capitalize on this effect, surface area is King.
The next thing I would recommend is a device that needs a long flux holding time. This is why I recommend a PM flux switch.
I have already designed and built it. I'll call it the GTL (short for "go to luc") Gate. The GTL Gate uses the same design principle of my mostly magnet motor, where both inner and outer fields of the coil is used which gives you double the magnetic field and obviously double the core surface area.

I will be sharing it soon but I was holding off till TinMan shares his results.

If you don't understand you will after I demonstrate it.

Thanks for everyone's participation

Luc

[MileHigh]

Gyula:

Yes I apologize for not acknowledging that you made reference to the efficiency issue because of the resistance of the coil.  I actually did read your comments and I did remember them.  That was just an unconscious "filter" in my mind acting because I take it for granted that you really know your stuff - hence I filtered out your contribution to the discussion.

All:

Congratulations to Laurent for attempting some power calculations.  If he shows his measurements and calculations then we can then discuss it more.  You all have to realize that spoon feeding you information is not the way to learn.  Nor am I an expert at this stuff, but I am not afraid of being corrected if I am wrong.  You can't ignore major issues about a circuit because you are unsure about what to do.  Trying something is better than doing nothing.  Share your ideas and see what comes of it.   All of you must be interested in knowing what the resistive losses in the two coils are compared to the energy that you put into the coils.  You have to be interested in this - "ideas on how to make a more efficient motor."  Yet the silence from many of you guys about this and other issues is sometimes deafening.

Going back to my "zero sum gain" discussion, I realize that the only way to get lower resistance and accompanying lower power dissipation in a coil for the same amount of magnetic field strength is to increase the gauge of the wire.  So multiple taps on the same coil when you want the same strength of magnetic field will all burn off approximately the same amount of power.  I will just repeat myself that lower resistance in the high-voltage coil "risks" the onset of LC resonance which presumably will not have a positive effect on the operation of the pulse motor.

Minoly correctly uses quotations when he says "high voltage coil."  It's very poor terminology.  There is no such thing as a "high voltage coil."  Any coil can generate high voltage or be driven by high voltage, hence the use of that term as well as "low voltage coil" does not really make sense.  From now on I will use the terms "drive coil" or "low inductance coil" and "secondary coil" or "high inductance coil" to refer to the two coils.

Nilrehob's comments about the mechanical analogies for circuit components are excellent and I am a big fan of that.  For inductors, I like the heavy spinning flywheel on a ball bearing analogy, but his moving mass analogy is equally valid.  I asked and got no answer about what happens when the drive coil outputs the current pulse into the secondary coil and there is no capacitor present.  Many of you guys are too shy and you only feel safe doing the same old tests and discussing the same old things that you have done many times before.  Time to break out of the box.  How would you frame the question and then answer the question if you substitute the drive coil and secondary coil for a pair of flywheels?  Do that correctly and the answer comes very easily.