Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[woopy]

Hi all

I am trying to answer my own questions of the beginning of this thread. That is,    is a magnetic field dissipated in the work it does on a passing magnet?

https://youtu.be/vLiUkno3tSY

So it seems in the video that the magnetic fiels needs power to be created, but once it is created, the work it does or not seems to have no need of more or less power. But when it collapses we can recover a part of the energy which was dedicated to its creation.

So is a created magnetic field really almost  free lunch on the torque it produces?

Not sure to be very clear here.

Laurent

[Magluvin]

Hi all

I am trying to answer my own questions of the beginning of this thread. That is,    is a magnetic field dissipated in the work it does on a passing magnet?

https://youtu.be/vLiUkno3tSY

So it seems in the video that the magnetic fiels needs power to be created, but once it is created, the work it does or not seems to have no need of more or less power. But when it collapses we can recover a part of the energy which was dedicated to its creation.

So is a created magnetic field really almost  free lunch on the torque it produces?

Not sure to be very clear here.

Laurent

Hey Woopy

Once the rotor is up to speed, the swinging magnet is pulled up toward the coil but it isnt moving anymore. Its probably vibrating and may be difficult to measure that energy of the vibrations.

When I read the post I anticipated that the test was to see if the drive coil input would be affected by the rotor magnets as it spins, and wondered how you would make the comparison. But Im not sure the swinging magnet test would affect the motor input much in this case because the secondary coil in that circuit is supposedly only getting the bemf from the drive coil.  Maybe this test is too far down the chain to say its conclusive.   What would be better is to measure the capacitor that is dumping into the secondary coil and see if the swinging magnet makes changes there, being that cap is the primary source for that coil.

Mags

[Magluvin]

What came to mind on how the test might be before I saw the vid was, hmm, how?

I thought, well the coil needs to be operating whether the rotor is there or not. So one would have to have a timed input circuit that emulates the input to the coil as the motor would produce when present and in motion, then compare measurements.  But it gets deeper.  Now do measurements with the rotor with a load where the rpms are lower and we are actually doing work instead of the rotor running itself at max rpm.  Then do the input emulation again simulating the reed switch timing.  If there is no change or a change for the better, then this could be very interesting.

I really liked the idea Luc found with pulsing the motor instead of straight dc didnt change the input when loaded. That is crazy impressive. To me anyway. May be interesting to do that test with one measurement of the motor free wheeling and one measurement with the motor shaft locked in place. Use lower input to not burn the coils, just measure the differences.

Mags

[gyulasun]

Hi Laurent,

My thoughts:

Of course the  movement of the permanent magnet in front of the input coil does some work by being attracted towards the coil while it is drawn back by its elastic suspension and partly by gravitation.  But this work done seems to be very little I agree with Magluvin.

1) I wonder whether the input current would change when you use a piece of ferrite or laminated soft iron core instead of the permanent magnet.  In this case the inductance of the input coil should change as the core would "wobble" in front of it. (it is possible that the magnet may influence the permeability of the I core too what you mention to have in the input coil but this may also be only a small change)  However, with a ferrite piece in front of the coil instead of the perm. magnet, the wobbling of this core would possible 'average out' to be a tiny trembling, so what we could sense would possibly be whether the presence of such core would make a difference or not

2) I wonder how the input current would change if at all, when you firmly hold the permanent magnet in your fingers (or fix it mechanically and do not let it move at all) but the magnet would still under a strong attraction (very close to the coil). This way the work done by the fields should increase I suppose and this may or may not have influence on the input current.   I think though that this may only have  the same effect as the case when the magnet is let trembling with a little 'averaged' amplitude against its elastic suspension.

3) I wonder how the input current would change if you use a much stronger permanent magnet (if you have such at hand, that is).

Thanks for showing this test.

Gyula

[gotoluc]

Hi all

I am trying to answer my own questions of the beginning of this thread. That is,    is a magnetic field dissipated in the work it does on a passing magnet?

https://youtu.be/vLiUkno3tSY

So it seems in the video that the magnetic fiels needs power to be created, but once it is created, the work it does or not seems to have no need of more or less power. But when it collapses we can recover a part of the energy which was dedicated to its creation.

So is a created magnetic field really almost  free lunch on the torque it produces?

Not sure to be very clear here.

Laurent

Merci Laurent pour continuer les tests.

Vos questions sont très valide!

Ceci est exactement ce que je propose depuis le premier jour. Une fois le champ magnétique est créé dans la bobine et le commutateur est ouvert, nous pouvons utiliser le champ magnétique (flyback) pour créer un deuxième champ magnétique pour faire plus de travail.
Beaucoup diront, la flyback ne contient pas autant d'énergie que l'entrée initiale à la bobine et fera un champ magnétique faible. Cela est vrai si, le second champ magnétique entre une bobine de la même valeur (inductance) que la première. Cependant, en utilisant une bobine d'impédance plus élevé, le fyback peut créer un champ magnétique aussi forte que la première bobine en raison que c'est l'inductance qui va dicter la force du champ magnétique dans la seconde bobine.

Il doit y avoir un équilibre idéal dans le choix de valeur d'inductance pour la deuxième bobine. Exemple, si le flyback est seulement 33% de la puissance que nous avons commencé avec la première bobine, est ce que la deuxième bobine aura besoin de 3 fois l'inductance pour faire un champ magnétique aussi forts? et si nous avon un commutateur a la deuxième bobine, pourrions-nous envoyer à nouveau son flyback à une troisième bobine et ainsi de suite?
Comme on le voit, il ya encore beaucoup de questions?  je suis heureux que vous recherchez ces options.

Ce que Magluvin et Gyula essaient de vous dire est, l'aimant ne se déplace pas assez pour faire votre test concluant. Peut-être que si vous attachez un élastique de sorte que l'aimant a plus de mouvement.

Merci pour le partage.  Je suis toujours heureux de voir vos tests vidéo.

Luc

Thanks Laurent for continuing the tests.

Your questions are very valid!

This is exactly what I've been proposing since day one. Once a magnetic field is created in the coil and the switch is opened, we can use it's collapsing magnetic field (flyback) to create a second magnetic field to do more work.
Many will say, the flyback does not contain as much energy as the initial input to the coil and therefore will make a weak magnetic field. This is true, if the second magnetic field enters a coil of the same value as the first. However, by using a higher impedance coil it can create as strong of a magnetic field as the first coil did since inductance is what will dictate the force of the magnetic field in the second coil.
There must be an ideal balance in choosing the ideal assisting coil inductance value. lets say the flyback from the first coil is only 33% of the power we imputed, does this mean the second coil need to be 3 times the inductance of the primary coil to make as strong of a magnetic field? and if we switched off the second coil at its peak, could we again send its flyback to a third coil and so on?
As we see there are still many unanswered questions.

What Magluvin ans Gyula are trying to tell you is, the magnet is not moving enough to make your test conclusive. Maybe if you attached an elastic so the magnet has more of an in and out movement.

I am always happy to see your video tests.

Thanks for sharing and looking forward to your next tests.

Luc