Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[shylo]

Nice, but why not just eliminate the heat?
artv

[sm0ky2]

Hi sm0ky2,

please make a video of your shaded pole motor demonstrating the advantages.

Thanks

Luc

im not saying these have any particular advantage, other than the ones we already take advantage of...
im just saying, if you want to make a "more efficient" motor, you have to beat those ones first.....

if you can do that, then you have a point of sale in every appliance in every home in America......

[itsu]

Great test Itsu.
But remember one thing-->in order for the waste heat to increase,there first has to be an increase in current. So the rotor is reducing current flow,even though that current flow is what is driving the rotor. The extra heat is just a bi-product of the increased current flow.

Brad

Off course, for the components to get hotter, there must flow a greater current through them, but its not easy to individually measure the current through each component.

So somehow the running rotor cause the current in the whole system (not only through L1) to go down.
To me this means that the "entry" (being the battery) is being influenced.

So this could be a "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage" as Poynt99 mentioned, or "EMF superposition" as verpies did call it.
(http://overunity.com/16261/rotating-magnetic-fields-and-inductors/msg469735/#msg469735)

This "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage", or "EMF superposition" seems stronger then the driving power for the rotor.

Another thing i noticed and needs further investigation is the fact that it "looks like" that the increase in current in the whole system starts immediately
when the rotor is "out of sync" with the SG, so we see already an increased current while the rotor is still running.
This to me supports the  "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage", or "EMF superposition" as it needs to be in sync with driving the rotor to have that effect.

Regards Itsu

[tinman]

(http://overunity.com/16261/rotating-magnetic-fields-and-inductors/msg469735/#msg469735)




Regards Itsu

Off course, for the components to get hotter, there must flow a greater current through them, but its not easy to individually measure the current through each component.

This is true,and a very well equipped lab would be required,or maybe put the whole device in a box,and calculate all heat dissipated from each component as one device?.

So somehow the running rotor cause the current in the whole system (not only through L1) to go down.
To me this means that the "entry" (being the battery) is being influenced.

So this could be a "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage" as Poynt99 mentioned, or "EMF superposition" as verpies did call it.

I am not sure that verpies was agreeing with Poynt's theory,or the fact that verpies like to call this negative-induced voltage the EMF superposition voltage?. At any rate,if you look at Poynts own test he carried out,you can see that his theory on the negative-induced voltage being the cause of the effect is not correct. Below are his scope shot's,and you can see that while the P/in may have gone down with his simmed rotor in play,the P/out also went down(i have drawn a white line across the inductive kickback across the 200 ohm resistor). So what poynt achieved was to reduce the P/in,and at the same time reduce the P/out. So the overall efficiency remained much the same.
In my(and yours) with the rotor in play,we see a decrease in P/in,but an !increase! in P/out--as seen by the width of the inductive kickback spike in my below scope shot's,and also in the video's when using both the scope and DMM's to measure P/in and P/out.
So no-Poynts test did not show the results we are seeing.

This "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage", or "EMF superposition" seems stronger then the driving power for the rotor.

Yes-exactly
Some of the EE guys are saying that the rotor is an energy storage device,and it is just returning it's energy back into the system.
I have asked the question many times now-->how can the rotor return more energy than it took to spin it in the first place?,not to mention the fact that there will be losses in the rotor due to windage and bearing friction. But some how we can put X amount of energy into the rotor,and get Y amount out .

Another thing i noticed and needs further investigation is the fact that it "looks like" that the increase in current in the whole system starts immediately
when the rotor is "out of sync" with the SG, so we see already an increased current while the rotor is still running.
This to me supports the  "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage", or "EMF superposition" as it needs to be in sync with driving the rotor to have that effect.

Do as i did Itsu,and you will see if it is the negative induced voltage that is the cause for the current decrease. All you have to do is measure(scope) the voltage across the coil during the on time,with and without the rotor in play.

I to have seen a massive increase in current when the rotor is not in sync,and this is because the coil is now trying to suck the rotor back toward it,or pushing against the apposing magnet on the rotor. Once it becomes out of sync,it will stop very quick-or quicker than a free wheeling spin down.
At a 13% duty cycle,i cn get my rotor to !hunt!,meaning that the rotor is falling in and out of sync--you can hear it hunting. At the point where you can hear it out of sync,you also see that the input current go's up,and when it go's quiet(back in sync),the input current go's down again.


Brad

[poynt99]

Another thing i noticed and needs further investigation is the fact that it "looks like" that the increase in current in the whole system starts immediately
when the rotor is "out of sync" with the SG, so we see already an increased current while the rotor is still running.
This to me supports the  "negative-induced voltage in series with the battery voltage", or "EMF superposition" as it needs to be in sync with driving the rotor to have that effect.

Regards Itsu

Yes, it comes down to phasing, or timing of the induced current. In my simulation I can change the phasing by varying either the inductance or capacitance of the resonant tank, and if adjusted so that the phase is 180° to what was shown, the input power increases.

Good observations itsu! I admire your objectivity.