Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[gotoluc]

I looked at your clip and it does appear that the inductance is increasing with the addition of the magnet.  However, it's highly unlikely that what you did in that test is directly comparable to the JLN test.  I don't get a sense that there is any motoring action in your clip, but it is a possibility.

So, motoring action will slow down the increasing current in a coil, which on the surface appears to look like increasing electrical inductance, but it's not really.  If anything, you can say that through the motoring action you have coupled to a mechanical inductor (the mass of the magnet) to the electrical inductor.  A mass in motion has the exact properties of inductance.

You apparently demonstrated increasing inductance wile adding a cylindrical magnet directly to the center axis of the toroid.  This is not directly comparable to the JLN clip.  The lesson is that you can't do one experiment and then apply the results of that experiment with a wide brush to all other situations.

In your clip, you need a schematic to allow people to make sense of what your scope display is showing.  I even made that comment on your clip in 2011.  What you are calling the back spike looks more like a damped LC resonance.  When you add the magnet, the frequency of the LC resonance decreases, which also supports the increasing inductance claim.  I hope that you learned from Verpies that going forward you need a schematic 100% of the time, no matter how simple the circuit is.

MileHigh

Quite the contrary, my test is very comparable to JLN. We are just using different sizes of magnets, mounted on different surfaces and placing them in different locations.

His large magnet will make his wheel vibrate which makes the sound you think is motor action. Mine is at most 10% of the size of his, so obviously won't be affected as much and it is also being held by a small steel lamination dampened by my fingers. You're also not comparing how much power he is putting in his coil compared to mine.
So all this is giving you a false impression that these test are not the same. Seeing a schematic will also not conclude anything. Both are coils being turned on and off.
How different and complicated is that

You were wrong about a magnet not being able to increase a cored coils inductance and your wrong about these tests not being the same.
What are the chances, since I got the exact core that were recommended for the Orbo build and don't you think JLN did the same?

Here you are arrogantly making a mockery of JLN test based on your ignorance that a magnet cannot increase inductance:

For some strange reason JLN states, "When the lag of the current is max, here is the angle where the coil must be energized by the controller."    So he seems to be off in the clouds, something that has happened before with him.

He is simply not realizing that the current is rising more slowly because of the motoring effect where the magnet is seriously vibrating due to the pulsing coil.  It takes power to make the magnet vibrate, and we can hear it in the clip.  That power is coming from the coil itself.

and you come up with your own BS motoring hypothesis.
The one who is off the clouds is you! and you could of saved your face a little but you've openly admitted (above) that you've already seen my video back in 2011 and failed to remember what should of been obvious at the time.

What are you doing here???    are you not at least capable of learning something form someone who is supposed to know less than you?

May this be a lesson to you and all your followers that you don't have all the correct answers based on what you have learned from the past. There are new products like Finemet that you obviously know nothing about.
So it's fine if you don't want to do experiments but don't think you know all the answers as things are changing fast and in time you'll be an old school dinosaur.

So better stop your BS now before you really sink your ship... or should I say shit?

Luc

[tinman]

For a fellow that supposedly has an open mind to possibilities, you appear to be having problems thinking outside the box.

Really
It looks to me that you are the one that insist on sticking to the !!known!! laws--not me.
In stead of trying to think outside the box,just remove the box altogether.

Has it occurred to you that the rotor and coil are exchanging energy at the same time? Apparently not.

So we have 1 guy putting two cup's of water into a bucket at the same time another guy is taking one cup of water  out. So we would be loosing water from the supply to the bucket. But in this case we seem to be taking 2 cups of water out of the bucket,and only putting in 1 cup-but the bucket remains full-the rotor continues to spin,and the P/in go's down.

So once again--how is it that we can transfer energy from the coil to the rotor,and at the same time have the rotor return energy back into the coil,and have the P/in go down,while the P/out remains the same or greater?.

We now have Luc just show us that the inductance increases in his toroid core when an external magnetic field is induced into the core. We also had JLN show the very same thing,and i am also saying that this is the reason for the reduced current flow into the coil--the inductance of the coil rises during the on time,as there is a magnetic field of the opposite polarity approaching the core of the coil. The closer the rotor magnet gets to the core of the coil,the higher the inductance will rise within that coil,as the field/flux induced by the current flowing through the coil is being reduced/neutralized by the approaching magnet of opposite polarity. Of course MH is trying to find ways or reasons ,so as the books remain correct,and dismiss the test results shown by others as some sort of motoring action.

Wish there was, but I see no reason to continue my discussion here.

Well i was hoping that you would be able to recreate the effect with your sim setup,but as you wish.

[tinman]

Quite the contrary, my test is very comparable to JLN. We are just using different sizes of magnets, mounted on different surfaces and placing them in different locations.

His large magnet will make his wheel vibrate which makes the sound you think is motor action. Mine is at most 10% of the size of his, so obviously won't be affected as much and it is also being held by a small steel lamination dampened by my fingers. You're also not comparing how much power he is putting in his coil compared to mine.
So all this is giving you a false impression that these test are not the same. Seeing a schematic will also not conclude anything. Both are coils being turned on and off.
How different and complicated is that

You were wrong about a magnet not being able to increase a cored coils inductance and your wrong about these tests not being the same.
What are the chances, since I got the exact core that were recommended for the Orbo build and don't you think JLN did the same?

Here you are arrogantly making a mockery of JLN test based on your ignorance that a magnet cannot increase inductance:
and you come up with your own BS motoring hypothesis.
The one who is off the clouds is you! and you could of saved your face a little but you've openly admitted (above) that you've already seen my video back in 2011 and failed to remember what should of been obvious at the time.

What are you doing here???    are you not at least capable of learning something form someone who is supposed to know less than you?

May this be a lesson to you and all your followers that you don't have all the correct answers based on what you have learned from the past. There are new products like Finemet that you obviously know nothing about.
So it's fine if you don't want to do experiments but don't think you know all the answers as things are changing fast and in time you'll be an old school dinosaur.

So better stop your BS now before you really sink your ship... or should I say shit?

Luc

So very correct Luc.
Once again we see that MH (and others) insist that power is required to cause the vibrations(MH's motoring) in JLN's demo,but once again,we see a reduction of P/in by way of the reduced current.
Some how the EE guys here are trying to tell us that the PMs receive energy from the coil,and then that energy is returned back to the system. If we take into account losses involved in this back and forth energy swapping,we should see an increase in P/in. But no-every time we see a decrease in P/in,while the P/out either remains the same or is greater. How can you put energy into a rotor,and have that rotor return that energy--all while there is a reduction in P/in?

JLN shows the reason--,you have shown very clearly the reason,and i have stated that the reason is because of an increase in inductance of the core when the PM is approaching the core. All this we have seen and shown right in front of us,and yet we have the EE guys trying to tell us the opposite is true--even though they have provided no evidence to back up there claim.

The increase in inductance you showed with your toroid is far to great to be a mistake Luc-->great job indeed.


Brad

[gotoluc]

The increase in inductance you showed with your toroid is far to great to be a mistake Luc-->great job indeed.

Brad

Just keep in mind that I have only observed an increase in Inductance by magnet to core with Finmet toroids.
To date, no other core material I have tested with magnet has shown an increase.
Ferrite is the worst, it drops Inductance like a bad leak at the presence of any magnet.

Luc

[tinman]

Just keep in mind that I have only observed an increase in Inductance by magnet to core with Finmet toroids.
To date, no other core material I have tested with magnet has shown an increase.
Ferrite is the worst, it drops Inductance like a bad leak at the presence of any magnet.

Luc

Yes,i just found that out with my ferrite toroid. How ever,i also tried a metglass tape wound toroid core from an old toroid transformer,and it showed an increase in inductance when a magnet was bought close to it.

Seems ferrite is not all it's cracked up to be in this situation.

Brad