A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?

[jbignes5]

I did not count the clock down to zero as I really do not know what happens.  I decided to  just extrapolation his previous results (he was losing .01V and 1mA every 10 seconds just before he disconnected the clock so the best I think we can do is continue with this without additional data.  That dropped amps down to zero after 300 seconds. So this gives the EESD an extra 1095 joules per cell (avg 3.65 joules for 300 seconds). 

That gives him 19752+1095=20847 Joules per cell. so the Li-Ion at 576000/20847 is still 27.6 * more power so approx 28 EESD Cells per Li-Ion Cell or 26*28-26=back to additional 702 cells.

The only way I can think to award more power is if he charged the EESD for longer.  I am not sure why he charged it for 3 minutes maybe a charge for 6 minutes will give him twice the amount of power so he only needs half that number of cells (I don't know). 

I think the best thing at this point is for RMS to do is
1) Build an EESD with the same weight as the 3.6v 1150mAh Li-Ion Battery
2) charge the EESD to max power (as long as it takes) 
3) Let the EESD run down to zero with a known load and record amps,  volts and time.  (if it takes 2 hours that is fine just time laps every 30 seconds )
4) Repeat the same experiment with the Li-Ion Battery. 

I don't think there is any point in measuring a single cell it is not accurate enough.  If RMS can get more Watt Hours from his cell of the same weight we can easily do the math.

I agree but he has done that already, well the company that he sold the tech to did. He was just doing this to get the word out and a subject to teach people about the excitement of experimenting. It wasn't a class to figure out the correct method to determine the charge since he didn't have a full cap to compare fairly.


If you will I have another video that explains his reasoning for doing his videos and yes that means this video too.

Here is a good video of the subject of super caps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVjymF9Ow1w

[MileHigh]

Jbignes5:

Who are you to demand that I jump through hoops for you and make useless measurements when there is no point to doing that?  You came here in a huff and needed to burn off a lot of negative energy.  Do you feel better now?  Technically, all you really did was make yourself look like a fool.  Get your act together and stop this fantasy-land denial of the facts.

You stop impugning my character right now.  I said RMS made a huge blunder, a gaffe, an outrageous error, because it was an outrageous error.  If you don't like it, tough luck for you, some strong words are perfectly justified in this extreme case.  I will repeat to you:  Stop impugning my character.

I was doing RMS a favour letting him know about his error.  If he had any sense, he would have removed the clip and done a new one.  Do you know the famous story of the TED Talk where they let this Rodin coil guy come and give his spiel?  People were very angry about that and this second-tier TED Talk group got a lot of heat for letting some unknown guy get up on stage and spout off junk.  The TED Talk organization had to review its policies before permitting people give a talk, it was a big scandal.  Well, if RMS went to a seminar or annual meeting of developers of advanced capacitor and battery technologies and presented the data that he shows in that clip, then his reputation among his peers would be destroyed and he might even get laughed and booed off the stage.  It's time for you to wake up and stop being a belligerent ass about the most basic electronic concepts that nobody would question.  Really, stop it now and stop making a complete fool of yourself about these basic technical matters.

You are going to have to live in the real world because there is no escape from the real world.  What I said is true and no tantrums from you and no attacks from you on my character will change anything.  Look at the end of RMS's clip where he glibly states that his compounds outperform the compounds in a lithium-ion battery and realize that the truth is that he has not proved that in his clip.  Rather, he made a mockery of his work in that clip by completely failing to make a credible energy measurement.  His peers in the research sector would be completely aghast.  No nonsensical rebuttals from you - it's absolutely true.

There are many players in the realm of researching new capacitor and battery technologies.  RMS is just one of many, and his credibility has taken a hit by that clip.  I would love to see this stuff reach production and you calling me the "MAN" is just more nonsensical foolishness from you.

Gather your wits together because your big "energy burn" in all your postings was futile and nonsensical.  Nothing has changed, and RMS has presented junk data.  Science and engineering mean something real, and crazy tirades and nonsensical technical gibberish from the likes of you change nothing.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

I did not count the clock down to zero as I really do not know what happens.  I decided to  just extrapolation his previous results (he was losing .01V and 1mA every 10 seconds just before he disconnected the clock so the best I think we can do is continue with this without additional data.  That dropped amps down to zero after 300 seconds. So this gives the EESD an extra 1095 joules per cell (avg 3.65 joules for 300 seconds). 

That gives him 19752+1095=20847 Joules per cell. so the Li-Ion at 576000/20847 is still 27.6 * more power so approx 28 EESD Cells per Li-Ion Cell or 26*28-26=back to additional 702 cells.

The only way I can think to award more power is if he charged the EESD for longer.  I am not sure why he charged it for 3 minutes maybe a charge for 6 minutes will give him twice the amount of power so he only needs half that number of cells (I don't know). 

I think the best thing at this point is for RMS to do is
1) Build an EESD with the same weight as the 3.6v 1150mAh Li-Ion Battery
2) charge the EESD to max power (as long as it takes) 
3) Let the EESD run down to zero with a known load and record amps,  volts and time.  (if it takes 2 hours that is fine just time laps every 30 seconds )
4) Repeat the same experiment with the Li-Ion Battery. 

I don't think there is any point in measuring a single cell it is not accurate enough.  If RMS can get more Watt Hours from his cell of the same weight we can easily do the math.

I will just share a few thoughts but I am just about done with this topic.

RMS opened up the lithium cell.  Instead of taking scrapings from just one layer, he could very easily have scraped say five layers of both reagents and then weighed the whole thing on one piece of paper.  Then he could have done the same thing for his own reagents.  Put scrapings from five sets of reagents onto a single piece of paper and weighed them.  His error tolerance for his mass measurements would have gone from say +/-25% to perhaps +/-3%.

I don't see any real issues in only measuring one planar cell.  You can see in the buildup of the lithium-ion cell that each layer is approximately the same, so assuming one of 13 layers will have the 1/13th the amount of ampere-hours @3.8V is perfectly reasonable.  The real problem is the accuracy of the mass measurement which I addressed above.

Then I think it would be perfectly reasonable for RMS to measure the energy storage in only a single planar cell like he shows in his clip.  There is obviously the law of diminishing returns the longer he takes his measurement, so what's the difference in going say 480 seconds instead of 240 seconds?  Beyond that, there has to be a reasonable cut-off voltage anyways.  If the voltage is always decreasing, then an "RMS battery" would have to have a small boost converter built into it and the input voltage to the boost converter can only go so low.

So, with more accurate mass measurements (a trivial amount of extra work) and a longer discharge time (but not too much longer) and actually making the proper energy measurement then you would have some decent data.

No, I don't believe that charging his cell longer would put more energy into it.  Presumably the cell was fully charged for his "failed impressive test."  On the other hand, RMS makes a strange comment that a better electrolyte would have his cell produce a higher voltage and he seems to be strongly implying more energy output.  I would question that, presumably the chemical compounds have a finite amount of energy in them and if you are outputting at a higher voltage then for the same current you draw that much faster from your energy store.

It would not be too difficult to redo the clip properly.  The current clip can be analyzed for the amount of energy in his cell but the large error margin in his mass measurements takes away from the results.

I will just repeat that my gut feel is that his recipe does not shine way above the numbers for a lithium-ion cell.  It apears like the error margins in the first clip could easily push the data such that the RMS cell under-performs compared to a lithium-ion cell.   Plus the lithium-ion cell is manufacturable and like you said, the masses of the other components of the battery are to be determined.  Not to mention the number of charging cycles performance, storage life, temperature stability, internal impedance characteristic, manufacturability, and so on.  Who knows how many millions(?) of dollars it takes to go from a lab experiment to a shipping product.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

I attached a response to RMS, presumably it is invisible to all except myself and RMS.

I just checked and five minutes after the posting and he won't even let me see my own post.  Of course when I am on a cookie-free browser I can't see anything that I posted.

93:  You can act as crazy as you want without attacking people on this forum.  You keep on attacking people then the users on this forum will start flagging your postings and start to complain about you to Stefan.  Then you will end up with an iPad and nowhere to go.

[tinman]

MH detail is bias ! Forget MH ! He lives on the brain power of others to sucking up all your energy is what his true intention is ! A  vampire of the creative mind and free will ................................................................................... ! He needs mental help ! In other words he is a nutter so why bother with what he says ? The idiot in him rules his life ! He is a real  fruit and nut job a one side coin that has no worth in experimental physics ...

If you want a free energy device with no moving parts no high voltage simple to make cheep safe than you need an electron propagator 1 amp in 10 amp out at any volts you like ! And that is a small one .. If you want the next version a self generator its a little bit more complex but very real and simple to make ... MH is not interested in the advancement of free will or new logics or technology ! He only lives to argue with people and will seek to constantly attack everything that works and he demonically abuses people because he is a very sick man !

Lets move on to infinity generators and never give MH the secrets of it ! Just ignore him ! 




 

Stop talking,and start showing.
Dose put up or shut up mean anything to you ?.