MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[tinman]

Brad:

The simple fact is that you have trouble with abstract concepts.  An example is an ideal voltage source varying in time, you still refuse to believe that.  In the more difficult version of the question the ideal voltage source varies in time.  You need to move on with respect to the ideal voltage source business and just accept it.

An inductor can store energy.  A capacitor can store energy.  A battery can store energy.  But an ideal voltage source does not "store energy."  "How many Joules are in that ideal voltage source?" is a question that makes no sense.  An ideal voltage source is a potentially unlimited source of power.  It is simply "power on tap" and it doesn't make sense to think about it storing energy.

If an inductor returns a finite amount of energy back to an ideal voltage source then that energy is not to be "found inside" the ideal voltage source.  The concept of an ideal short "containing energy" is simply ridiculous.

It's like a jigsaw puzzle were you want to force pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together that don't fit because you said something and the only way to backup your statement is to force some concepts together that don't fit.  It's related to your issue about refusing to accept that you are wrong.

It's time for the discussion to move forward.  What is the complete current waveform and more importantly what are the concepts that explain the current waveform?  The only part of the question that you have answered so far is the fact that the current doesn't change when the ideal voltage source outputs zero volts.  The clues to answering the full question are in this thread.

You have to understand what is taking place in the circuit and why it does what it does if you are going to understand and appreciate the harder version of the question that has already been answered.

MileHigh

No need for any more of you babble MH.
My description of an ideal voltage source is correct,and backed up by verpies. So now your just making your self look stupid.

The fact that you think a source that can deliver power ,dose not contain energy,just go's to show how little you know.
That also means that you could not have answered your question correctly.
You would be trying to explain how a car is able to be powered by an engine,without knowing how that engine works.

Good show MH.


Brad

[tinman]

Brad:

Well, if you are going to push it then we will get to the root of the matter, and it's a use of language issue.  It makes sense to say that a capacitor or an inductor can "contain energy."  It implies that there is a finite and measurable amount of energy in the device.  In contrast, a voltage source has no finite and measurable amount of energy.  It doesn't make sense to say that "A voltage source contains some energy."  An ideal voltage source is not even a tangible device, it's a theoretical device.

In the world of electronics, nobody uses the language construct of an ideal voltage source "containing energy."  That's the way it is, and sometimes you have to go with the flow.  Just because you strung those words together does not mean that it is a valid thing to say.  In fact it is an invalid thing to say and you should just absorb that fact and move on.  When you used the argument that since an inductor can return energy to the ideal voltage source therefore the voltage source "must contain energy," it was simply wrong.  You have to think and choose your words better than that.  An ideal voltage source supplies energy, it does not contain energy.

Most importantly, we are certainly all in agreement on this fact:  The ideal voltage source can supply power to the device it's connected to, and it can even absorb power from the device it's connected to.  There is no disputing this fact by anyone in this debate, and that is the critical factor for advancing this debate.

So don't give us your trash talk that I "dont understand what a !source! of power is."  You are not fooling anybody by a long shot.  It's time for you to move forward in the technical discussion and talk about what we are really here for.

MileHigh

We are dealing with facts MH,not some deluded MH version of what an ideal voltage source is.
You are now trying to throw in one of your deluded paradoxes that dose not exist.

In one post you say ideal voltage sources exist,and now you say it's a device that dose not exist in reality.
First you argue with me when i state that an ideal voltage source dosnt exist,and now you agree with me--just to try and bail yourself out of your mistake.

Any voltage source contains energy-show me one that dose not.
If that source could supply an infinite amount of power,then it would contain an infinite amount of energy.

So just provide one example of a voltage source that can supply power,but has no stored energy within that soufce.


Brad

[SeaMonkey]

it's a use of language issue.  It makes sense to say that a capacitor or an inductor can "contain energy."  It implies that there is a finite and measurable amount of energy in the device.

Agreed.  The Inductor or Capacitor which is storing
energy is said to be "Charged."

In contrast, a voltage source has no finite and measurable amount of energy.  It doesn't make sense to say that "A voltage source contains some energy."  An ideal voltage source is not even a tangible device, it's a theoretical device.

Surprisingly, your language and your theory is rather
imprecise Miles.  Is there some Wobble here?

In the world of electronics, nobody uses the language construct of an ideal voltage source "containing energy."  That's the way it is, and sometimes you have to go with the flow.
...
When you used the argument that since an inductor can return energy to the ideal voltage source therefore the voltage source "must contain energy," it was simply wrong.  You have to think and choose your words better than that.  An ideal voltage source supplies energy, it does not contain energy.

Now that is definitely Wobbly! So you're actually saying that
you believe a Voltage Source contains no Charge?  That it is
not a repository of Stored Energy?  That it has no Capacity?

Miles, that is a Most Unusual Conclusion!

[MileHigh]

He also stated -but what happens to  it?.
Then we look at MHs idiotic reply after that-shows how serious he is about the whole thing.

Verpies said-but what happens to it once it is absorbed?--MH says it cannot be contained within the ideal device that verpies and yourself just stated absorbed it.

Im wondering if you are seeing how stupid this sounds.

Brad

Well, in this posting I am going to assume that you are not properly conceptualizing what an ideal voltage source does when you pump power into it.

I cracked a joke because Verpies was just asking a silly question for fun.  Any power that is pumped into an ideal voltage source doesn't go anywhere.  It's simply gone, you can forget about it.  The ideal voltage source is still the same ideal voltage source, nothing has changed.

A source that can provide power, must contain the energy within it, in order to provide that power.

Yeah, it contains an infinite amount of energy.  So where does that get you?  If a coil pumps more energy into a "container" that stores an infinite amount of energy then voila!, you still have a container filled with an infinite amount of energy.

Or, if you want to be "more sophisticated" you can forget about the container altogether and just call it an ideal voltage source.

So it's time to stop spinning your wheels and stop the trash talk.

[MileHigh]

So just provide one example of a voltage source that can supply power,but has no stored energy within that soufce.

Brad

This is a ridiculous discussion and you are just wasting time.

Here is the answer to your question:  I take a paper napkin and a pen, and I mark a few lines on the napkin, and there is your ideal voltage source and there is no stored energy in sight.  The _idea_ that it can supply energy is in your mind only, and that's all that counts.