MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[allcanadian]

@Tinman

[size=0px]This (in the animation)is the very same way your tuning fork work's,but where as maximum amplitude can be maintained in the two stroke resonant system,meaning it remains in resonance,while the tuning fork just ring's down-amplitude decreases the instant it has been struck-->Quote: In physics,[/size][size=0px] resonance describes when a vibrating system or external force drives another system to oscillate with greater amplitude[/size][size=0px] at a specific preferential frequency. Increase of amplitude as damping decreases and frequency approaches resonant frequency of [/size][size=0px]a driven[/size][size=0px] damped simple harmonic oscillator.[/size][size=0px]

I would think the tuned pipe is a slight variation of the Helmholtz resonator although they are so similar it's hardly worth debating. It reminds me of an interesting story... about 20 years ago I was into a similar technology called valve-less pulse jet engines. My engine was about two feet long and about 2" in diameter at the neck and made one hell of a racket. However I tend to over do things and decided to see if I could push it into a what is called pulse detonation mode by introducing O2. Well it did reach this mode I believe for about two or three cycles and I could hear a noise similar to thunder echoing across the whole damn city, lol. Scared the shit out of me and I rattled all my neighbors windows. You cannot possibly imagine how loud it was and I swear my whole body and the ground was physically vibrating. After that episode I never ran it again and it has been collecting dust in my shed ever since. In retrospect it was a very loud hand grenade and disaster was imminent... fun times. I'm not really sure why but I have done some really crazy shit in the past and I'm surprised I made it this far.


AC

[MileHigh]

And as usual,you have got it all wrong again.
You obviously took no notice at all at the animation showing the precise timing needed in order for the returning pressure wave to re-inject the gas mix back into the cylinder at the correct position of the piston. When this timing between piston position and reverse gas flow is correct,the system is in resonance,and at this particular frequency(RPM) engine power and efficiency is at a maximum.

This is resonance in the purest sense,where maximum amplitude(maximum explosive force)is reached at the systems natural resonant frequency.
And do not get this mixed up with turbo charging or super charging of a 4 stroke engine,as they are not the same. The only thing they have in common,is that they all increase engine power.

This (in the animation)is the very same way your tuning fork work's,but where as maximum amplitude can be maintained in the two stroke resonant system,meaning it remains in resonance,while the tuning fork just ring's down-amplitude decreases the instant it has been struck-->Quote: In physics, resonance describes when a vibrating system or external force drives another system to oscillate with greater amplitude at a specific preferential frequency. Increase of amplitude as damping decreases and frequency approaches resonant frequency of a driven damped simple harmonic oscillator.

Just as i tried to tell you earlier on in this thread--but you knew better-once again-->hey MH
Like i told you,if you want to discus ICEs with me,then you need to brush up on how they work,as im simply not going to waste my time talking or arguing with some one that has no idea as to what they are talking about.

Brad

No Brad, I did not get it wrong, and you saying that "like usual I got it all wrong again" is just you doing your same old shtick.

I obviously took notice of the animation because I made reference to it.  You will also note in the great link provided by AC there is not a single reference to resonance and the word "resonance" or "resonant" is never used.

This is resonance in the purest sense,where maximum amplitude(maximum explosive force)is reached at the systems natural resonant frequency.

No, it is not even remotely close to resonance which by definition involves energy cycling back and forth between two different forms at the resonant frequency - like in a tuning fork or a wine class.  This has been covered for months now, has any of it sunk into your head?

In this case the maximum amplitude (maximum explosive force) is reached when the piston firing time lines up with the optimum timing for the returning pressure wave from the tune pipe.  Effectively it means that the echo off of the back of the tune pipe is at optimum timing.  This is not resonance in any way, shape, or form.  So a good chunk of the 75+ times you have been haranguing me about this "ICE resonance" business was you digging yourself into a hole.

I assume that you have heard of a PLC controller?

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/digital/chpt-6/programmable-logic-controllers-plc/

They are used in all sorts of industrial processes and manufacturing processes.  One of the many things they do is orchestrate a sequence of events with the proper timing to operate some kind of production or process line properly.  For example, "When sensor switch A goes ON, turn on relay #5 exactly three seconds later."  That is akin to what is happening with the tune pipe when the engine is at the correct RPM - you get the optimal timing at that RPM.  That hasn't the slightest thing to do with resonance at all.

I will throw a hypothetical example at you.  In the Kellogg's factory they make Corn Flakes.  At the input to the production line there are corn kernels, sugar, salt, whatever else.  At the output to the production like there are raw unboxed Corn Flakes.  There is going to be a PLC controller that controls all sorts of stuff on the line.  For example, say 50 grams of salt are put into the liquid Corn Flakes goop every 20 seconds.  If the line stops, a signal goes to the PLC controller and the PLC controller stops adding the 50 grams of salt.

The PLC controller is critical in the production of the Corn Flakes and controls literally hundreds of events, and for each event there is a programmed timing that is entered into the PLC controller.  If the Corn Flakes tasters on the end of the line tell the production manager that the Corn Flakes are starting to taste too salty, the production line manager figures out where the problem is and corrects it.

Now, when the Kellogg's plant manager stops by and asks the Corn Flakes production manager how the line is running, do you think he says, "Good news Jim, the line is in resonance?"  The answer is NO, he says that the event timings for the PLC controller are all good, the sensors are all good, the actuators are all good, and the line is producing raw Corn Flakes without any problems.

So you are barking up a wrong tree Brad, you are just deceiving yourself about the exhaust cycling for a two-stroke engine, it has nothing to do with resonance.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Like i told you,if you want to discus ICEs with me,then you need to brush up on how they work,as im simply not going to waste my time talking or arguing with some one that has no idea as to what they are talking about.

Like really, kiss my butt with the fake-ass "waste my time" attitude business.  What about the hundreds of hours that people like Poynt and Picowatt and others have put into helping you?  You have had no idea what you were talking about many times and they put in the time.  And it's very ironic that you identify the exhaust timing with resonance, it feels like hundreds and hundreds of hours put in to help you have been in vain, and a waste of time.  But people still work to help you anyway.

Look at the business on the other thread with the attempt to characterize the input of the inverter.  You say, "The inverter is quite reactive--see scope shot below across CVR to inverter input."  From what I can see that is a totally ridiculous statement.  On top of that you haven't even come close to characterizing the inverter input.  And one more time, the handful of people interested in the thread are saying nothing and think you have it right.  So right now, you are leading your group down the wrong garden path.  One more time, it appears you looked at a DSO display that you though was "right" and you were satisfied with that and posted it and you believe that it's time to move on in the investigation.  Your investigative skills leave a lot to be desired because they are extremely shallow and you are convinced that you are "right" the moment that you get something that "looks right" on your DSO display.  When I look at your DSO screen capture I see what I am quite certain is junk, and if that's it as far as the investigation goes then it's way incomplete.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

I would think the tuned pipe is a slight variation of the Helmholtz resonator although they are so similar it's hardly worth debating.

They are actually very dissimilar and I will explain why.

The Helmholtz resonator is based on a "plug" of air mass in the neck that pushes against the "spring" of compressible air in the air cavity of the resonator.  So, this looks like any other LC-type resonator where the resonant frequency and associated cycle time is based on the square root of L x C.  There is no pressure wave at all in the model for the Helmholtz resonator.

For the tune pipe in your Wikibooks link, for starters, there is no resonant frequency at all, there is only a cycle time.  In addition the cycle time is dependent on the length of the tune pipe, just like the cycle time for an echo depends on how far you are away from the wall that the sound waves bounce off of.  From the link, "the goal is to have the diverging section create a returning rarefaction wave and the converging section create a returning pressure wave."  So there is no modelling of this in any kind of "resonant LC device" way.

In a nutshell, you are looking at the difference between a true LC resonator (that can be operating in a one-shot mode) with a cycle time, and a device that is based on a pressure wave bouncing off the back of the tune pipe with it's related speed of the wave and length of the pipe to give you a cycle time.

No matter how you look at it, those are two different beasts.  One is a resonant device, and the other one is simply a time-delay device.

MileHigh

[tinman]

No matter how you look at it, those are two different beasts.  One is a resonant device, and the other one is simply a time-delay device.

MileHigh

Post 1044-The moving piston that draws air in and pushes the exhaust gasses out cause the Helmholtz resonator processes for the air inlet and exhaust gas outlet.

Today--They are actually very dissimilar and I will explain why.

Lol-Your all over the show MH
One day it is,and the next it is not.lol.

For the tune pipe in your Wikibooks link, for starters, there is no resonant frequency at all, there is only a cycle time.  In addition the cycle time is dependent on the length of the tune pipe, just like the cycle time for an echo depends on how far you are away from the wall that the sound waves bounce off of.

And when that cycle time aligns perfectly with the cycle time of the pistons port position,we have what between the two that gives rise to a maximum amplitude of pressure in the combustion chamber?. When do you obtain resonance in an LC circuit?--when the cycle time is correct

There is no pressure wave at all in the model for the Helmholtz resonator.

Quote: By one definition a Helmholtz resonator augments the amplitude of the vibratory motion of the enclosed air in a chamber by taking energy from sound waves passing in the surrounding air. In the other definition the sound waves are generated by a uniform stream of air flowing across the open top of an enclosed volume of air.

From the link, "the goal is to have the diverging section create a returning rarefaction wave and the converging section create a returning pressure wave."  So there is no modelling of this in any kind of "resonant LC device" way.

In a nutshell, you are looking at the difference between a true LC resonator (that can be operating in a one-shot mode) with a cycle time, and a device that is based on a pressure wave bouncing off the back of the tune pipe with it's related speed of the wave and length of the pipe to give you a cycle time.

Quote: A tuning fork serves as a useful illustration of how a vibrating object can produce sound. The fork consists of a handle and two tines. When the tuning fork is hit with a rubber hammer, the tines begin to vibrate. The back and forth vibration of the tines produce disturbances of surrounding air molecules. As a tine stretches outward from its usual position, it compresses surrounding air molecules into a small region of space; this creates a high pressure region next to the tine. As the tine then moves inward from its usual position, air surrounding the tine expands; this produces a low pressure region next to the tine. The high pressure regions are known as compressions and the low pressure regions are known as rarefactions. As the tines continue to vibrate, an alternating pattern of high and low pressure regions are created. These regions are transported through the surrounding air, carrying the sound signal from one location to another.

Quote the s stroke resonator--This pipe consists of an expansion chamber which serves to create both the returning rarefaction and pressure waves.

Holly crap MH--they do the same thing-->the tuning fork and expansion chamber
But one of them resonates,and the other dose not--you just have them mixed ass about.

See what i mean about your !picking and choosing! to suit your need to be correct


Brad