The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....

[Magluvin]

Oh yeah, and as far as me being an "anti-resonance shill" goes or "someone is paying me" goes, that has nothing to do with me and says a lot about you.  It feels like we are on our way towards another "fail" doesn't it?  You yourself brought up the question about the ignition circuit and the capacitor to me, and as of yet we have no data from you, just some "show and don't tell" observational clips.  You claim that you are going to show some real data on Sunday, and all that I can say is bring it on.  After all, it would be a miracle if an experiment could be performed and come to a successful conclusion with everybody understanding what is taking place and everybody being on the same page.

Here is the thing with you..  You bash anyone who talks of resonance. First you say hey magzy resonance wont help you, but here you deny the existence of it. No matter what your stance is there is no possible way for the primary and cap to oscillate. It is an LRC because of the other things in the loop when the contacts open. Look up LRC resonance and tell me you can find no reference to that.    Pic below

Shall I copy paste all the times you have said that there is no resonance in this circuit?

And your first post your description is devoid of any inductance action other than transformer action

And the cap only ever charges to 12v if the battery voltage is 12.

And are strongly expressing only dc exists in the circuit as a whole with the exception of some artifacts in the secondary

Anything to avoid the possibility of the lcr resonance that is easily found all over the internet.  So your expert circuit analysis is lacking dont you think?


Has me thinking that why dont you just say that oscillation gives you nothing? Thats what you have always said before. So why the complete denial that it does exist here and nowhere have you done that before?  So I have to think you really need to shill this one out harder as this circuit must  have some things going on that it needs to be killed lol.  Sorry but...  So you just keep denying the possibility of the oscillation of the cap and primary, of which is described as the resonant freq of the LRC in the searches below in the pic. So now those are not correct and an LRC doesnt ring? Or this circuit is not an lrc ? 

I just needed to say this hard right now. I cannot have you perpetuating the idea that it cant, it wont, it doesnt ring just like a bell. If you know what you say you know, then you should know better. So this hard hitting, constant, resonance is nothing and saying it doesnt even exist in the circuit here, yeah has me thinkin shill jim. You say there are no shills here.  look up  Monsanto shill  And see the result of the search.  And its real.  So in the energy industry is it so hard to believe that there may be some here?  Monsanto doesnt want people to believe their products are harmful to us.  So is it so hard to believe that the energy industry wouldnt want people to know of free energy?  Ah just because it is impossible to begin with right?  Thats what they said about many things starting 200 years ago up until now.

mags
'

[tinman]

"Not sure if your having a bad day,or have had to much whacky weed Mag's,but i have not approved or removed any ones posts in this thread--i have done nothing but read,and make the comments i made--thats it"

No wacky weed.  But I just looked at the moderation log and Stefan approved them apparently. Didnt know I could see who 'else' did.  I bases it on your posting just a couple hours after they we approved. So sorry on that. It wasnt me, I only approved the posts before that. Wasnt grum as he and i have be conversing lately. Also didnt know us 3 were not the only ones to moderate here.

"First up--!some! ignition systems use a ballast resistor--every seen one on a motorcycle that has points ignition?. Most high performance points ignition systems have no ballast resistor,nor do a lot of coils require a ballast resistor.



Second--a resistor reduces current flow-not voltage.
The voltage will appear across the coil,regardless of the resistor or not.
The ballast resistor is to reduce the time constant(the rate at which current rises in the coil)--the larger the series resistance,the shorter the time constant.
This allows your ignition coil to operate at a higher frequency--higher RPM."

When the points are open there is no voltage across the coil with just the ign sw on. Only the cap has 12v.  just using 12v here. 14.4 would be 7.2v each. Dealt with this with one of the guys at my previous work as they didnt understand why there wasnt anything near 12 on the col primary and was searching for why. So I showed him why with the meter just like I said it above.

"I think you missed the whole question Mags,which was--why do you think the engine runs rough and back fires when there is no condenser ?
I basically answered this for you,and you missed it."

Well if the plug is firing sometimes and a weak spark even if it does spark every time without the cap, there will not always be a burn in the cycle and the cyl can get a little loaded with fuel, more than would be in a single cycle. This can cause backfire just like a bad plug, wire, whichever. Out of time can definitely cause backfire but it is more typical with retard. Just like a too rich mixture can cause backfire the same can happen when a cyl doesnt get a burn for a cycle or more due to a weak spark.  Like what you are saying is the advanced spark time that you speak of is way off of when it should spark. You talkin intake valve open right? For the the flames to come out of the carb that is way off timing. When it is suppose to spark is just before complete compression. You are sayin that the closure of the points for the spark you are talking about would be somewhere between intake valve just opening and when it closes just before compression begins. Id say that is not a point where the distributor rotor is even close enough to the particular plug wire terminal for the very weak spark to even jump let alone with the series opening of the plug gap.
Look up  What causes backfire and too rich will come up every time. If a cyl is not firing well and periodic burs, then the too rich deal would occur when it does happen to get a decent spark.  I did a search just now and see nothing that you describe in your post,  I had to do the search just to add to my argument that there cannot be a spark by way of when the switch closes, even if you have 20v in. Try it.  The will only be a spark when the switch opens due to the field collapse.

And you show me a source link that covers just what you say is happening here? One that say there can be a spark when the points close if the condenser is removed?
If you can I will cut my toe off. Only if they can explain how the shorted cap when the switch is closed prevents this mystery spark.

I dont buy it. Gotta show something other than just your opinion on that, of which it just may be an opinion and you are not stating it as a fact. Thats fine either way, but if you claim it is fact, does anyone else out there on the net agree with that?

The cyl is rich due to intermittent burns because of intermittent weak sparks because the cap is not there to help with making the spark stronger, thus back firings occur. Thats my story


here is the big issue. How does the cap affect this premature when the switch closes spark you speak of?   Ok so you say there is this spark that happens when the points switch closes, right Well how would having the cap across the points switch help to prevent that sark you claim happens?  At this point if the spark you say can occur when the switch closes, the cap is now shorted when the switch closes. What is the caps function, while it is shorted across the closed switch that prevents this spark you are claiming happens when the switch closes??



Here is the question at the end of your post  "What roll dose the condenser play here in this one example?."  Well the answer is it plays no roll. it is dead shorted at the time of the switch closure... So is that a correct answer to that last question?  Because if it is, then the whole, spark when the switch closes when the cap is removed form the circuit, is all a farce. Because with the cap or without the cap this spark should occur and give you the same backfires with or without the cap!! Get it?

Right there shows it is definitely not as you say.      Can you agree that there is not this 'when points closed spark' whether the cap is there or not???

I mean you did say  "We all know that if we remove the condenser ,we get very erratic engine......"  Well?     If you agree that the spark you speak of does not occur period now, then why did you make it all up as if it is the way it is brad?

Mags

The ballast resistor is commonly 1ohm like the primary. With it in series with the coil during closed points time, the amount of current flowing is only as much as the total resistance. It becomes a voltage divider. 12v becomes 6v across each. Simple I=v/r

No Mag's,it's not as simple as I=v/r as we have inductance.

After all this time,you should know that a voltage appears across an inductor before current starts to flow.

The ballast resisters job is to decrease the L/R time constant,and this allows for a higher operating frequency--as in RPM in this case.

The secondaries voltage will increase with an increase in rate of change of the magnetic field--Yes?.

It would be far better to set up a test bed,and shoot a video for you.

I am glad you found that it was not i that approved any posts from MH.
I am glad you now know that the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system is around 14.4 volts.
I can only hope that you also do some research on the ballast resistors operation as well.


Brad


Brad

[Magluvin]

No Mag's,it's not as simple as I=v/r as we have inductance.

After all this time,you should know that a voltage appears across an inductor before current starts to flow.

The ballast resisters job is to decrease the L/R time constant,and this allows for a higher operating frequency--as in RPM in this case.

The secondaries voltage will increase with an increase in rate of change of the magnetic field--Yes?.

It would be far better to set up a test bed,and shoot a video for you.

I am glad you found that it was not i that approved any posts from MH.
I am glad you now know that the average operating voltage of a vehicles electrical system is around 14.4 volts.
I can only hope that you also do some research on the ballast resistors operation as well.


Brad


Brad

Right? When the switch closes 12v appears across the primary. And no current has flowed yet.  So even if it were 15v, you cant use that value in the calculation of what happens on the secondary till current flows!  So as the field builds the current rises and the voltage across the primary decreases and the resistor voltage increases.  So if there is a spark when the switch closes, at what point during the field build, voltage going lower and current rising time, does the primary shmack the secondary enough to calculate to get 1500v at any point in time that the switch is closed? When the 2 resistances end at 7.5v each at max field build?  The resistance voltage divider comes into play along the way and you wont get the voltage and current calculations for the 15v to induce the secondary as you say like a transformer..   

lol put a resistor in series with the primary of a typical 12v transformer and plug it into a wall brad,, Now scope the primary.  If the primary is say 500ohms and the series resistor is 500ohms, what voltage would you see across the transformer vs the line current at the wall outlet?   That transformers output will be half of what it is suppose to be when without the resistor...... So your calculations would be invalid....

Now would the absence of the ballast resistor be just that, what you say a current limiter to not get the spark that you speak of? if the resistor is taken out of the loop, would there be the contacts closed spark? Maybe the ballast resistors function is just for that purpose to avoid the switch on spark?

Well what kind of a spark would be output by the secondary if the primary were ringing at high freq with 250v swings compared to 15v direct connect? Id say the 15 only spark will be pretty close to nothing that could possibly cross the distributor gaps and the spark plug gaps in series.

Mags

[MileHigh]

Here is the thing with you..  You bash anyone who talks of resonance. First you say hey magzy resonance wont help you, but here you deny the existence of it. No matter what your stance is there is no possible way for the primary and cap to oscillate. It is an LRC because of the other things in the loop when the contacts open. Look up LRC resonance and tell me you can find no reference to that.    Pic below

Shall I copy paste all the times you have said that there is no resonance in this circuit?

And your first post your description is devoid of any inductance action other than transformer action

And the cap only ever charges to 12v if the battery voltage is 12.

And are strongly expressing only dc exists in the circuit as a whole with the exception of some artifacts in the secondary

Anything to avoid the possibility of the lcr resonance that is easily found all over the internet.  So your expert circuit analysis is lacking dont you think?


Has me thinking that why dont you just say that oscillation gives you nothing? Thats what you have always said before. So why the complete denial that it does exist here and nowhere have you done that before?  So I have to think you really need to shill this one out harder as this circuit must  have some things going on that it needs to be killed lol.  Sorry but...  So you just keep denying the possibility of the oscillation of the cap and primary, of which is described as the resonant freq of the LRC in the searches below in the pic. So now those are not correct and an LRC doesnt ring? Or this circuit is not an lrc ? 

I just needed to say this hard right now. I cannot have you perpetuating the idea that it cant, it wont, it doesnt ring just like a bell. If you know what you say you know, then you should know better. So this hard hitting, constant, resonance is nothing and saying it doesnt even exist in the circuit here, yeah has me thinkin shill jim. You say there are no shills here.  look up  Monsanto shill  And see the result of the search.  And its real.  So in the energy industry is it so hard to believe that there may be some here?  Monsanto doesnt want people to believe their products are harmful to us.  So is it so hard to believe that the energy industry wouldnt want people to know of free energy?  Ah just because it is impossible to begin with right?  Thats what they said about many things starting 200 years ago up until now.

mags
'

But you are ignoring what the ignition circuit is actually doing.  From an earlier post:

<<< When inductors discharge into resistive loads, they don't resonate.  The plasma is a non-linear resistor, therefore there is no resonance.  And I know that when an inductor discharges into a plasma, essentially all of the energy stored in the inductor is drained away in one shot.  And that is fundamentally what the ignition of a spark plug is, and that's why I said there was no resonance.  >>>

It doesn't matter if there is LCR resonance all over the Internet.  It's fundamentally a "Bedini circuit" although putting it like that makes me cringe.  For something like the thousandth time:  You energize an inductor.  The you open the switch and we know that the inductor is a current source and come hell or high water the inductor is going to push out current and nothing can stop it.  If the inductor encounters a capacitor in its path it will push current into the capacitor until it is drained of energy and then the capacitor will output voltage and push back into the inductor and you get resonance.  If the inductor encounters a resistor of any value, it will push current into the resistor until it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.  If the resistor is air, then it will push current through the air and turn the air into plasma because nothing can stop the inductor from pushing current, and the inductor will push current through the air until it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.

So what is the bare-bones version of what is happening in the ignition circuit?  It's simple, the secondary inductor pushes current through the air and tuns it into plasma and and it stops pushing current through the air plasma when it is drained of energy - NO RESONANCE.

What is the more detailed version of what is happening in the ignition circuit?  The inductor has two heads like a hydra, the primary inductor and the secondary inductor.  The current flow rate for the primary inductor is higher than the current flow rate for the secondary inductor.  As long as the primary or the secondary is meeting its assigned current flow rate everything is fine - if there is no place for the current to flow from the primary or the secondary the inductor will have a freak-out and generate millions of volts if required to break down anything in its path.   When the switch opens, there is a place for current to flow via the primary, and current flows into the capacitor.  So the primary pushes current into the capacitor until the capacitor is charged to say 300 volts.  At this point the capacitor is pushing back hard on the primary and perhaps 90% of the energy is still stored in the ignition coil core.  The current flow is always looking for the path of least resistance and at this point the secondary takes over and pushes current through the air turning it into plasma.  When this happens the current flow in the primary stops.  Once the secondary is pushing current through the plasma, it drains off the remaining 90% of the energy in the core until it is down to zero.  The whole time the secondary was pushing current through the air plasma, the primary and the charged capacitor were locked in a stalemate pushing battle and no current was flowing.  Now that the core is drained of energy, the primary loses its source of pushing power and finally the capacitor pushes back and wins, and the current flow finally changes direction and you have a resonant ring-down that is damped by the battery.  This resonant ring-down between the primary and the capacitor does not have enough juice to reignite the air on the secondary and turn it back into plasma.

Now, the above is what is happening based on what I learned after getting up to speed after I wrote up my original spec which was clearly wrong.  If you want to argue that resonance is giving you a gain or is the principle mechanism for giving you a bigger plasma spark on the secondary then you have to make a valid and credible case for that.  Just having LCR resonance fantasies because you see a capacitor and an inductor connected to each other on a schematic is not going to cut it.

And on top of that, if you disagree with the more detailed version of what is happening in the ignition circuit as stated above, then make your case again.  Just ignoring it is not going to get you any Brownie Points.  I think what I state above is 100% credible, and it's not going to just go away.

[MileHigh]

This posting is the revenge of the battery and the big spark V2.0.

In my original write up I thought that during the plasma burn the battery was putting power into the plasma via the coil acting like a step-up transformer and I was wrong.  Clearly, while the capacitor is being charged up by the primary there is no burn until the "breaking point" when the secondary takes over and ignites the plasma and the core dumps its energy into the plasma via the secondary.  It's impossible for the battery to be contributing to the burn under these conditions because current has stopped flowing counter-clockwise through the loop.

Here is where the battery gets its revenge because it can still put extra energy into the core _after_ the switch opens and _before_ the plasma burn starts.`  Note however this assumes that the primary has been energized for considerably less than 5 L/R time constants and there is still room to increase the current flow in the primary.  So this may be helping give you a more energetic spark in a running engine, but not on a bench test where you are doing the switching by hand.  (This makes me think more and more that the reason you get the more energetic spark with the capacitor is because it protects the contact points from arcing and a lot of energy is lost when there is arcing across the contact points.)

Just look at the attached images.  The bottom image shows the ignition coil circuit.  Look at the battery, it is in the loop ready to push.  What happens when the switch first opens?  The capacitor acts like a short circuit.  If there is still available headroom in the core to store energy, then the battery may indeed contribute to the more robust spark by adding some extra energy to the core for a fraction of a millisecond.  This just illustrates one more time how important it is to construct a timing diagram if you really want to understand what is going on.

In the attached simulation I simply played with component values to demonstrate the principle.

Simulator web page:  http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html
Sim URL:  http://tinyurl.com/ybtbekk6