12 times more output than input, dual mechanical oscillation system !

[Senator]

Ok.

Question.

Why is the flashlight thing touted as an amazing proof for the machine?

You/He appears to interpret as energy, only the period a flashlight is on or in fact the light from the flashlight itself, with no regards to the speed he brings (his) flashlight in. I think that he vastly underestimates the energy he is inputing, which is far greater than just pressing the dynamo button on the other flashlight.

That energy, does not come from closing the contact, (that would require just to press it with your finger, then put it near the pendulum, and release it allowing the button to hit the pendulum. Then you could claim that you have inputed into the system energy equal with the one needed to make one flashlight turn on) it comes from his arm, which in turn comes from bio/chemical reactions releasing enough energy to accelerate the mass of said arm, and ultimately the mass of the flashlight, which collides with the hanging pendulum, which then gets transfered (that biochemical energy) to the entire mass of the pendulum. Energy, far, far greater than the pressing of the dynamo button.
In fact, with the flashlights are on or off is quite irrelevant, a much better measurement to take would be heat. The heat produced by the collision of his flashlight to the hanging pendulum, and the heat produces by the collisions of the hammer to the other flashlight.

You see, he appears to be thinking over this, as the energy that takes to pressing the dynamo button, when in reality, you have there one flashlight getting its dynamo button pressed, and another flashlight getting its button pressed, moving at a speed. Their energy is not equal.

[Dingus Mungus]

The point of the flashlight was that when your pushing on a moving object, its hard to deposit extra energy without moving faster than the object in its away swing. This coupled to the fact that his single flashlight could barely be fully lit with the impact was use to illistrate an overall understanding of the concept, not an accurate CoP.

Build the wind resistance demo with junk from around your house and you'll be a believer. Also check out American replications on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLRTW7Kdje4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_XVuMdSro4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3GQnhpkMBc

I just hung a pendulum from a rod made from a metal clothes hanger. Mounted it so its level under the weight of the pendulum, and taped a sheet of paper to the pendulum. I pulled it back and released it. It twisted arround and quickly came to a stop. I expected as much. Then I moved the same piece of paper to the spot on the lever furthest from the fulcrum where the movement and resistance would be greatest. Same test but a lot more work was extracted... Dare I say more than 12 times what the pendulum itself was able to do on its own. This means I introduced the same amount of potential energy in to a pendulum and got back more expendable kinetic energy on the lever than I could extract from the pendulum. Do you see what I mean? I then did the same experiment with no paper and found the runtime of a unloaded lever and a loaded lever were roughly the same as no extra strain was placed on the pendulum in either example.

Please experiment and then draw an opinion.
This is a super simple device, but its complicated to fully understand.

~Dingus Mungus

[Senator]

Barely lit, is not how I would describe the shoving shown here: http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Video/Veljko_Milkovic_(video-7)_Universal_oscillator-generator.wmv

Once again, the light is irrelevant, it does not represent the energy provided by the act of the mass of the flashlight (AND arm) colliding at a speed with the pendulum. How long it stays on, doesn't provide any information on how "hard" it was pushed. Also, don't forget that those lights, light up at the act of being pushed, not on them button remaining pushed. As a result, any light colliding with the pendulum, would only light up only during the initial collision and then would turn off while you could still provide for the rest of a second as acceleration.

If anything, pushing away while the object is in it's away swing, is the best, this way you can provide a very gentle acceleration for a significant amount of time that will add to the objects energy (as opposed to a collision with the object coming at you which would also risk canceling some of it's kinetic energy) while maintaining the illusion that is insignificant. You collide, flash light turns on-off and then you continue the movement with your arm, but this time your arm charging with energy the entire mass of the pendulum. The energy seems insignificant to us, because arm muscles are strong and so we concider the act of shoving such big a mass as an army and letting it "rest" (from our perception) on a pendulum insignificant.

As I said, just, truly using only the energy of the dynamo light's button decompressing (eg, by pressing it with a finger from the side, or a string, bringing it near a still pendulum, and releasing it) and managing with that, to press 2 flashlights, or 12, would be impressive.

Concerning coathungers, I couldn't understand very well your device but I assume you mean the same "toy" in the first video in the http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html site specifically around 7:30-8:30

My problem with that is that you/he has no way of accurately measuring the energy he provides with the starting "tap". Presumably he provides just enough, for the vibrations to be start looking "similar" as when unloaded. A more dramatic way of doing it in fact would be to lift the horizontal end exactly the same amount off center in  both cases.

But

It is not the same system any more. Because the small pendulum, acts as an energy storage. Basically, what he did, was increase the mass of the long element. By providing enough energy to make it "start" with the exact same vibration, you have actually provided much more energy. His "tap" might seem the same to him, but it now sets in motion a system with much more mass.

So.

Although the horizontal pendulum alone doesn't fair well alone with a paper.
And the small pendulum alone doesn't fair well with a paper.
When you attach the paper to the horizontal one, with the small pendulum attached to it, what the paper faces now, is a horizontal pendulum with the mass of the horizontal element AND the small pendulum together. And since the small pendulum is also swinging, also it, being an energy storing device (almost like a winding spring) for the horizontal element.

[Dingus Mungus]

Barely lit, is not how I would describe the shoving shown here: http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Video/Veljko_Milkovic_(video-7)_Universal_oscillator-generator.wmv

Again my point is still: the required input pressure of the pendulum (while in swing) is a LOT less than that required to power 12 flashlights at once... Would you agree?

Once again, the light is irrelevant, it does not represent the energy provided by the act of the mass of the flashlight (AND arm) colliding at a speed with the pendulum. How long it stays on, doesn't provide any information on how "hard" it was pushed. Also, don't forget that those lights, light up at the act of being pushed, not on them button remaining pushed. As a result, any light colliding with the pendulum, would only light up only during the initial collision and then would turn off while you could still provide for the rest of a second as acceleration.

This is because the energy given to the pendulum is lower than the energy required to compress the spring. Would you agree? If not why doesn't the handle fully compress?

If anything, pushing away while the object is in it's away swing, is the best, this way you can provide a very gentle acceleration for a significant amount of time that will add to the objects energy (as opposed to a collision with the object coming at you which would also risk canceling some of it's kinetic energy) while maintaining the illusion that is insignificant. You collide, flash light turns on-off and then you continue the movement with your arm, but this time your arm charging with energy the entire mass of the pendulum. The energy seems insignificant to us, because arm muscles are strong and so we concider the act of shoving such big a mass as an army and letting it "rest" (from our perception) on a pendulum insignificant.

Firstly, Thats how they were swinging it. Second, it would be hard to "trick my eyes" considering I did my own experiments before developing an opinion on this topic.

As I said, just, truly using only the energy of the dynamo light's button decompressing (eg, by pressing it with a finger from the side, or a string, bringing it near a still pendulum, and releasing it) and managing with that, to press 2 flashlights, or 12, would be impressive.

Yeah that would be a really easy demo to perform by hand...
Plus no one would come in claiming it didn't work then!

Concerning coathungers, I couldn't understand very well your device but I assume you mean the same "toy" in the first video in the http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html site specifically around 7:30-8:30

My problem with that is that you/he has no way of accurately measuring the energy he provides with the starting "tap". Presumably he provides just enough, for the vibrations to be start looking "similar" as when unloaded. A more dramatic way of doing it in fact would be to lift the horizontal end exactly the same amount off center in  both cases.

I have no idea what you are saying there... Did you mean load the pendulum to the same hieght in both experiments? If so the goal is to swing it in resonance and phase so the optimal swing distance is always roughly the same.

But It is not the same system any more.

It's just another form of the concept, all you need is two mechanical oscillators and gravity. The fulrum and counter weight are for power only. In fact that design is really squirrly to control, which is why most replications have gone to the wheel form.

Because the small pendulum, acts as an energy storage. Basically, what he did, was increase the mass of the long element. By providing enough energy to make it "start" with the exact same vibration, you have actually provided much more energy. His "tap" might seem the same to him, but it now sets in motion a system with much more mass.

Build one and judge for yourself. I can't stress this enough.

So.

Although the horizontal pendulum alone doesn't fair well alone with a paper.
And the small pendulum alone doesn't fair well with a paper.
When you attach the paper to the horizontal one, with the small pendulum attached to it, what the paper faces now, is a horizontal pendulum with the mass of the horizontal element AND the small pendulum together. And since the small pendulum is also swinging, also it, being an energy storing device (almost like a winding spring) for the horizontal element.

Congrats thats nearly the whole point of this device!!! You almost fully "get it". You can't load either when seperate, but magicly when combined you can load the lever without extracting any noticable force from the pendulum. The pendulums downward inertial causes its "weight" to tripple twice a cycle. And extracting power from the lever doesn't effect your "wound up spring" at all! Now you just need to input the energy yourself and extract the energy yourself and you'll understand it. Our video evidence will not suffice so you'll need to do your own experiment.

OK so forget the flashlights and how its an inaccurate test (never intended to be accurate) and go to small scale testing. If spending an hour building something is "not for you". Start reading from page one or just assume your right and never bother looking at this concept again. Point is no one is going to be able to help you understand this uber simple device. You need to help yourself by doing a simple proof of concept, but we both know thats not going to happen, as its easier to just hit reply and jabber on about the same points again. Do you honnestly believe you're the first person to come in and say those things?

Forgive me for being short, but I have this conversation once a week. Seriously... Take an hour and look back through the thread... People show up, read nothing, watch one video, and challenge months of work based on an uninformed opinion. It's an irritating case of big hat no cattle, considering anyone can build this proof of concept, out of anything.

Welcome to the forums,
~Dingus Mungus

[Senator]

Again my point is still: the required input pressure of the pendulum (while in swing) is a LOT less than that required to power 12 flashlights at once... Would you agree?

Not really. Levers can be impressive like that. Let me give you my favorite example. The door.

A well oiled door, needs only a "slight" touch to move, something someone would call "insignificant" energy. You could set it in motion by just unfolding your finger.

But, put your finger in the other end near the hidge after someone set it in motion, and you would find it "very difficult" to stop it. Put it in the wrong place and a "slight" shove (which if someone applied directly on your finger with his hand wouldn't hurt at all) might even crush it.

Slight shove from the one side, crashing power on the other, is that an overunity machine? Sounds like it, but it isn't. And if you understand that mechanism you can understand what is going with that device over here as well.

The door example gives me an idea for an experiment. Take something soft, like blue tack, and make a ball. Then put many balls of similar size in the hidge area, and hit the door with a ball you hold in your hand with enough force, to flatten it and watch how many you can flatten on the other side. The energy to flatten, or even slighty deform one blue tack ball on your hand, flatten many on the other side? What is going on there?

This is because the energy given to the pendulum is lower than the energy required to compress the spring. Would you agree? If not why doesn't the handle fully compress?

It does light up, so it does compress. The difference is that his, compresses once, and stays there for the remaining of the acceleration while because in the other side because compressions decompressions happen continously the energy output seems more dramatic.

But wait, there is in fact and a second problem. You appear to think that the energy it takes to compress the flashlight button in his hand, is the same with compressing the flashlights on the other hand.

Well, first off I want to call your attention to another phenomenon. Have you noticed that if you put a scale on a hard surface like marble, and if you put a scale on a soft surface, like a carpet, or over a pillow, they show different weights? What is going there? The carpet stops gravity? Initial intuition would assume that since the energy provided in both is same, they would both show the same amount, regardless if one have to dive inside the carpet enough until it becomes "solid".

But, this is not the case what it actually happens, is that the carpet, acts like a spring, and takes some of the load of the spring of the scale, with the two springs, based on their "hardness", finding a balance somewhere in the middle. Two scales one on top of the other would in fact show half your weight despite, you, providing the same force on them! (plus a scale). And you would need double the force to make it seem the same!

In other words. When you compress a spring against an object that gives way, it's not the same as when you compress a spring against an immovable surface. Your pendulum, is going to act as an opposite spring, as "hard" as the friction in it's pivot point (towards which is also a lever so it gives even easier way), which you hit during its away phase as well, I would say that the fact that it lights up at all, can already represent significant energy.

Yeah that would be a really easy demo to perform by hand...
Plus no one would come in claiming it didn't work then! Roll Eyes

Not that difficult actually. Let me describe it in more detail.

You take a piece of string. You tie it around the dynamo flashlight's button in a way so that it is compressed, you put the flashlight button next to the pendulum, and then you release the spring and/or if you have tied it and for neatness, burn it. That way, the pendulum is going to get one flashlight's button decompression worth of energy, if it manages to compresses even two on the other side, THAT would be significant.

That is all.

I guess I will have to build one myself, just to get the "no mock up model, no talk" comments off my back but I am also prepared to wait the very very very very long time it will take you to ever close the device and make it self-running.

I an overunity lurker, who could trust an electromagnetical device's claims, because they involve quantum effects likes fields and leave space for some invisible "mystery" you cannot debunk, unless you test it. Mechanical devices however will never work, no matter how many levers, how many flywheels and wheels someone hides behind, it always comes down to a geometrical riddle that results in what we know. Objects fall down, once.

Do you honnestly believe you're the first person to come in and say those things?

Those specific points, phrased like this? Yes.