Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment

[tinman]

For the diagram that was provided with the CSR in the 'positive' wire of the function generator,
that is incorrect for trying to measure the phase angle of Iin. You are trying to measure the phase
angle across both the function generator and the CSR in series when doing it that way. It is incorrect.
You can't measure the phase angle between the voltage and current waveforms that way. If you tried that
same CSR and ground placement  arrangement with a regular transformer (with the primary having both wires connected),
you would also get incorrect phase angle measurement results. If you want to place the CSR there, I believe you would
have to make the common ground point for all the probe grounds right at the 'positive' terminal of the function generator,
before the CSR.

Void

I see no problem here.
Ch1 is measuring the voltage across the function generator.
CH2 is also measuring the voltage across the function generator,minus the voltage drop across a pure resistance(the CSR).
All ground leads are connected at one point,and that is at the ground lead of the function generator.

As i said,i see no problem with the circuit provided,or any of the measuring points.

I have found the error in my previous result's.
Some dope left CH3s chanel multiplication at 2x from some previous testing,where the CVR was .5 ohms.
None the less,i am still over a COP of 300% 




So CH1 shows us our voltage input value,and CH2 shows us the voltage drop across our CSR,which also gives us our current value. You then multiply the voltage and current to get P/in.


Brad

[ayeaye]

I haven't not to know that.
"What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof".
Euclid
This statement from a great thinker saves us from wasting time with those who talk nonsense while they have the burden of proof. Thanks a lot, Euclid! 

Yes indeed. I used that about you. You rejected the Tesla's bifilar pancake coil without reason, so i could simply ignore what you say without reason. Your thinking works in finding your own faults, that's good. Thanks indeed, Euclid!

[itsu]

Itsu

I still have a hard time believing that CH1 and CH2 should not be in phase.
Unless your CSR is some what inductive,CH1 and CH2s phase should always line up.
Simply remove CH2s ground lead,and leave it floating. Your scope shares a common ground-dose it not?. If so,then removing CH2s ground lead,and just leave it lying on the bench, should make no difference to the phase angle between CH1 and CH2.

If you see no change in phase angle between CH1 and CH2 when you remove CH2s ground lead,then your current probe is not showing you correct results.

If the phase angle between CH1 and CH2 dose change when you remove CH2s ground lead,then you have a problem with one of your scope probes or leads,as the phase angle should not change when removing one of the ground clip leads--as long as 1 remains clipped to the ground reference point.
It may also be that your CSR is some what inductive.


Brad

Brad,

thanks for doing these tests.

But, of course CH1 and CH2 should be in phase, we are measuring across a (in my case induction free!) resistor.
By putting the both CH1 and CH2 probes across the FG and csr + FG you force them to ONLY measure resistance, so 0° phases.

I do not imply anything else.

But do you think the voltage and current across the whole input branch (FG, csr, L1) should also be pure resistive?
I don't think so, and that is (i think) what my current probe is measuring, the current compared to FG voltage
across the whole input branch.


When i remove CH2 ground from the common ground point, nothing happens as, like you say my scope has all probes
grounds connected together.

It only changes phases (compared to my current scope) when changing the CH2 ground from common ground point to just
before csr (R2) where also the current probe is, but of course you have to remove the other probes (grounds) as
otherwise you would short out the FG.

In my opinion, you measure/calculate input power only across the FG / csr (which show you phase 0°)
instead of the whole input branch (including L1) which MUST lead to a phase shift due to its inductive/capacitive
nature, so you are missing the Cos phi part in your calculation (try it, use -65 to -80% Cos Phi, you will be close to COP=1)

Any COP of 8000%  or even 300% must be wrong, common sense dictates this.


Anyway, i will leave it at this as i seem to be unable to get across what i see / think.


Regards Itsu

[tinman]

Brad,

thanks for doing these tests.

But, of course CH1 and CH2 should be in phase, we are measuring across a (in my case induction free!) resistor.
By putting the both CH1 and CH2 probes across the FG and csr + FG you force them to ONLY measure resistance, so 0° phases.

I do not imply anything else.

But do you think the voltage and current across the whole input branch (FG, csr, L1) should also be pure resistive?
I don't think so, and that is (i think) what my current probe is measuring, the current compared to FG voltage
across the whole input branch.


When i remove CH2 ground from the common ground point, nothing happens as, like you say my scope has all probes
grounds connected together.

It only changes phases (compared to my current scope) when changing the CH2 ground from common ground point to just
before csr (R2) where also the current probe is, but of course you have to remove the other probes (grounds) as
otherwise you would short out the FG.

In my opinion, you measure/calculate input power only across the FG / csr (which show you phase 0°)
instead of the whole input branch (including L1) which MUST lead to a phase shift due to its inductive/capacitive
nature, so you are missing the Cos phi part in your calculation (try it, use -65 to -80% Cos Phi, you will be close to COP=1)

Any COP of 8000%  or even 300% must be wrong, common sense dictates this.


Anyway, i will leave it at this as i seem to be unable to get across what i see / think.


Regards Itsu

Ok,i have to keep reminding myself that you have a battery operated or isolated FG--as i remember.

But lets look at the circuit below,where the FG shares a common ground with the scope.
We will also take voltage& current phase angle into account-->power factor.
Also we will look at the bifi coil,and how it may be acting.

First,the bifi coil.
Depending on both the inductance and capacitance value of the coil,at some point in frequency,the inductance will be canceled out by the capacitance,and the coil will act as a pure resistance.
This would result in a voltage and current phase angle of 0

Power factor.
When i calculate power ,i calculate for a power factor of 1.
This gives us a maximum real power value--when the voltage and current are in phase.
Once voltage and current become out of phase,the power factor drops,and the real power value is less.
So i am calculating for a maximum input power-->the actual value can only be less.

Now the circuit.

When we look at the circuit and scope probe placement's,we see the following.
CH1 is measuring the voltage across the FG--there is no doubt about that
CH2 is measuring the voltage across the FG and a pure resistance--there is no doubt about that.
CH1 and CH2 should always be in phase(or extremely close to)
If we subtract CH2s voltage from CH1s voltage,we get the voltage drop across our CSR--there is no doubt about that. From this we can calculate our current value,and we already know CH1 is our voltage value.

As our current from the FG must flow through the CSR ,we can now calculate P/in
We now calculate for maximum power,where the phase angle between voltage and current is 0

Also when i use the scope for flea fart power measurements at high frequencies,i switch the probes over to 10x,and then set my scope channels to 10x as well,so as the actual values are still correct. This then eliminates almost all influences the scope probes and grounds have on the circuit values.

Now,you are worried about the phase angle between voltage and current ?
Well let me throw a spanner into the works here 

Lets look at what i was working on today.
I wound a new coil--nothing special.
It is just a normal bifi coil,where both wires were wound onto the former at the same time--bedini style. The coil is about 12mm wide,and 50mm in diameter. On either side of the coil,i glued a 10mm x 25mm ceramic magnet,so as like poles were facing each other.

While sweeping the frequency,this happened--see below scope shot.

At a certain frequency,I now have 0 volts across my CSR (R2)  , but i have 2.25 volts across the load resistor (R1)

So my P/out is 2.25v across 10 ohms =506mW
But what is my P/in if there is no voltage drop across the CSR ?

The other thing to think about is-my FG can only deliver a maximum of 162mA of current,yet we have 225mA flowing through R1,and the transformer has a winding ratio of 1:1
And how do we have 225mA flowing through R1,and nothing through the CSR 

I even used just CH1 to measure each value,with CH2 and CH3 disconnected from the circuit,and all were correct--no change.

So i do agree that something is amiss with this setup,but what is going on here?
Perhaps F6FLT can shed some light on this?.


Brad

[F6FLT]

...You rejected the Tesla's bifilar pancake coil without reason, so i could simply ignore what you say without reason...

I don't reject Tesla's bifilar pancake coil. Proof: I made one and tested it!
And you? Show us what you realize instead of telling digressions or absurd lies against me.

It turned out that everything in my coil was classically explained and could even be easily modeled with LTspice.
Other experimenters note abnormal results, but it is clear that the measurement is difficult and there are possible experimental biases that have not yet be eliminated. So there is no OU in Tesla's coils, according to Tesla himself who has never mentioned OU in its patent 512340, and until proven otherwise.