Bifilar pancake coil overunity experiment

[tinman]

Hi Brad. Just because someone doesn't see something, it doesn't mean it is necessarily correct.
I have suggested how you can test it using a regular transformer to see whether placing the CSR there
with the probe grounds placed where they are gives correct results or not. I am tied up with other
things so can't demonstrate it right now. When Itsu uses his current probe at that same point
it does not have the same problem however, as it is measuring the actual current waveform as it actually is.
Itsu using his current probe at the same location should be showing a more correct phase angle measurement.

Placing the CSR and probe grounds where you have them means you are trying to measure the current phase angle
across both the function generator and the CSR. This is ok for measuring voltages if you take the difference,
but it will be incorrect for measuring the phase angle between the voltage waveform and the current waveform.
Think about it. How can you correctly measure the current phase angle when you are measuring across both the
function generator and CSR at the same time?

I wish a Merry Christmas to everyone!

Yes,i understand that.
But what i dont understand,as i said back in my test results post,is how can i have a larger current flowing through the load resistor than my FG can deliver,when the transformer(bifi coil) is a 1:1 turn ratio ?.
2nd,how can the voltage either side of the CSR be the same?--not looking at voltage/current phase offset here.

I can place the CSR on the ground side of the FG,and get my phase offset measurement that way-no problem there.


Brad

[Void]

Yes,i understand that.
But what i dont understand,as i said back in my test results post,is how can i have a larger current flowing through the load resistor than my FG can deliver,when the transformer(bifi coil) is a 1:1 turn ratio ?.
2nd,how can the voltage either side of the CSR be the same?--not looking at voltage/current phase offset here.

I can place the CSR on the ground side of the FG,and get my phase offset measurement that way-no problem there.


Brad

Hi Brad. I am not sure exactly all that you are doing there, but when dealing with AC circuits
things are not always so straight forward. You have to consider impedances and phase angles
between voltage and current waveforms at the same time, you can't just look at magnitudes of current
and voltage and try to draw conclusions from that. Unfortunately I don't have much time available
right now to look into it more. Good luck with your testing! All the best...

[ayeaye]

I'm sorry but, voltage and current cannot be in phase in a circuit where is capacitance. ch1 and ch2 may be almost in phase, but this is only because the voltage on the function generator is much greater than the voltage on the shunt resistor R2. Between ch1 and (ch2 - ch1) there should be a significant phase difference, due to capacitance. In spite that the voltage on the resistor R2 is small, it is important for calculating power, and thus the phase angle between the resistor R2 and the voltage on the function generator, makes a great difference. Thus replacing (ch2 - ch1) with a phase angle just with (ch2 - ch1) provides very wrong result, because all the phase angle factor is then omitted, which in absolute value can be somewhere in between 0.5 and 1. When there though is not much phase difference between the voltage and current in that circuit, then i don't know, one possibility then is that the bifilar coil is really bad, with almost no capacitance between the windings. When this is the case, then so bad bifilar coil sure cannot provide any overunity.

[tinman]

Hi Brad. I am not sure exactly all that you are doing there, but when dealing with AC circuits
things are not always so straight forward. You have to consider impedances and phase angles
between voltage and current waveforms at the same time, you can't just look at magnitudes of current
and voltage and try to draw conclusions from that. Unfortunately I don't have much time available
right now to look into it more. Good luck with your testing! All the best...

Void


New test setup and parameters.

I have shifted the CSR to the ground rail.
As can be seen,there is little phase shift between voltage and current,as in the other tests.

I used the scope to calculate all math,including the A-B calculation in the output test to obtain our voltage across R2(the load resistor).
This is so the scope can calculate for phase shift as well.

I have the scope probes set to 10x,and also each channel of the scope,so as the values shown by the scope remain correct.
Setting the probes to the 10x setting allows for very little impact on the circuit values when the probes and ground leads are connected to the circuit.

The first pic shows the circuit,scope probe placement,and resulting scope shot with math calculation.
Our P/in seems to be a steady 109mW as calculated by the scope.
Note the current flowing through R1 is 35.5mA

The second pic shows the circuit,scope probe placement,and resultant VRMS value across the 10 ohm load resistor.
Our P/out is then 1.9vRMS across the 10 ohm load resistor.
P/out=361mW.
Note the current flowing through R2(the load resistor) is then 190mA,and the transformer turn ratio is 1:1 

Our COP in this test seems to be 331% 


Brad

[ayeaye]

New test setup and parameters.

Great. Can you say what coil do you use, so that some can hopefully replicate?