RESSURECTED TINMAN NEW INVENTION.

[citfta]

Captainpecan,


You can use Goop glue to hold the magnets in place.  It will strongly resist the magnet movement but when you later decide to remove the magnet you can use a pair of pliers and give the magnet a twist and it will come right off.  I've been using it for years for this kind of work.  You could also add some flat washers between the nuts and the metal plates to stiffen the metal plates even more.  The forces of this setup are pretty strong as you are finding out.  How do you plan to go from a test of forces to a working system?  You will need to replace one of each pair of magnets with an electromagnet.  How will you mount the EM?  Just some ideas to pass along to you.  You're looking good so far.


Carroll


PS:  One other thing.  After you are done with your forces test you might want to consider a different flywheel.  Those of us that had the most success were all using a cast iron or steel flywheel.  We think it may have something to do with connecting the magnetic fields from one magnet to another.  My flywheel for instance is a  10 pound cast iron pulley removed from an old air compressor and rebored to take bearings in the center.


Edit:  Looking at your pictures again I see you do have washers on one side of your metal plates.  I would add them to the other side also.

[sm0ky2]

In the engineering process of any industrial rotary device of this nature:


Measurements are often taken directly from the shaft, at 1-arc radian per measurement
around one full cycle. Where all of the +'s and -'s can be summed.


The ratio of diameters between the point of force and the shaft size
are then used to calculate the torque differential to the shaft.
We can then use a metered torque applied to the shaft, and measured therefrom.
and almost everything we need to know about the design
(inside the magnetic black box)
comes to light.


While knowing peak force values is important,
and should be measured from each direction
this alone tells us little about the total energy involved.

[captainpecan]

In the engineering process of any industrial rotary device of this nature:


Measurements are often taken directly from the shaft, at 1-arc radian per measurement
around one full cycle. Where all of the +'s and -'s can be summed.


The ratio of diameters between the point of force and the shaft size
are then used to calculate the torque differential to the shaft.
We can then use a metered torque applied to the shaft, and measured therefrom.
and almost everything we need to know about the design
(inside the magnetic black box)
comes to light.


While knowing peak force values is important,
and should be measured from each direction
this alone tells us little about the total energy involved.

I agree fully. I will be doing measurements of force every 1 degree of movement from dead center where there is no force. As of now I plan to use a pull scale or pressure against a mini scale. It's just what I have to work with. I want to make a prony brake to use since I need one anyway for my other projects. I will doing my best to get good measurements so we know what is behind this whole concept.

[captainpecan]

Captainpecan,


You can use Goop glue to hold the magnets in place.  It will strongly resist the magnet movement but when you later decide to remove the magnet you can use a pair of pliers and give the magnet a twist and it will come right off.  I've been using it for years for this kind of work.  You could also add some flat washers between the nuts and the metal plates to stiffen the metal plates even more.  The forces of this setup are pretty strong as you are finding out.  How do you plan to go from a test of forces to a working system?  You will need to replace one of each pair of magnets with an electromagnet.  How will you mount the EM?  Just some ideas to pass along to you.  You're looking good so far.


Carroll


PS:  One other thing.  After you are done with your forces test you might want to consider a different flywheel.  Those of us that had the most success were all using a cast iron or steel flywheel.  We think it may have something to do with connecting the magnetic fields from one magnet to another.  My flywheel for instance is a  10 pound cast iron pulley removed from an old air compressor and rebored to take bearings in the center.


Edit:  Looking at your pictures again I see you do have washers on one side of your metal plates.  I would add them to the other side also.

Thanks for your response. I was kicking around what to use on those magnets and your suggestion is exactly what I need. I plan to use these magnets on my next project that took a back seat because I got interested in wanting to test this whole concept first.


As far as the flywheel. I agree, I need something better. I just don't have anything yet and have been looking for something. I designed this so I can ad a flywheel to the protruding shaft easily. I honestly have not even given a thought to the possible magnetic properties of the flywheel being paramagnetic as well. Mostly because I don't even have a metal flywheel to try anyway at this time. I'll find something I can use if needed. I want something to use anyway, just haven't found a good candidate yet.


I may ad more washers when I open things up again. I made it the way it is so I can easily loosen one nut on one side to adjust the gap, as I simultaneously tighten the nut, washer, and lock washer on the opposite side to keep all the tension on it so the magnet doesn't jump on me. Just my initial design ideas. I will evolve of course as needed.


I have predrilled the needed holes to ad 7 more bolts with magnets so there is one every 45 degrees. It's ready to expand out that much if tests go well enough to keep moving forward. That's some of how I designed it for expansion anyway.


As far as the electromagnets. I plan on replacing the top magnet with a vertical electromagnet. That way if all tests go well and there is reason to move forward with the design, it will be very easy to ad a second rotor to use the opposite side of the electromagnet and it's own opposing magnet above it as well. That way I could effectively double the output with the same single pulse of the electromagnet. The shaft protrudes a good 14" outside the unit there is plenty of room to expand it outward and ad longer bolts and more rotors if needed.


Its all of course a work in progress. And I keep changing things on the fly. I basically just want to test the whole concept and see if it is something I want to continue trying to improve since others have been working on it as well. My intuition tells me my other concepts are of more interest to me for a better motor generator design all together. But the entire underlying concept here I want to understand better and may be useful to use in other ways as well. So I will be trying my best to give this concept it's due diligence and trying to understand it all from experience.

[Floor]

@ captianpecan / all builders.

While some of you all ready know how to do this, any, might benefit
from a review of the files.

Attached below are two PDF files  "Force Graphing 2-2c.pdf"
                                                     and
                                                          "Diminishing Return 2-2e pn.pdf"
             

Together they describe some of what is behind / the whys of, and the how,
                               of measuring the work done as
the interaction of two magnets and the motion due to magnetic forces.

              thanks
                 and
                   regards

            floor

   P.S.
The second pdf  "Diminishing Return 2-2e pn.pdf"  should give some idea
as to how fine the increments of displacement and / or of weight, one might
want to use during a give set of measurements.

One often finds that even crude measurements will yield more nearly accurate
results than one has anticipated.

In this the   "tinman"   set, it will be important not to miss the rapid / dramatic change
in force per distance that occurs when the torque plate is near to or between the magnet
/ magnets.

Farther from the magnets, the force to distance will become more nearly a straight
line and therefore, the use of either larger increments of weight and / or distance will
hardly affect the outcome. 

One more (small pdf) file                 "Magnetic Force Measurement.pdf"