Luling magnet motor with 3D printed parts (motion only bij permanent magnets)

[Ufopolitics]

Greetings knovos,

First let me say that I fully understand how Ufo's motor works (well done Ufo!).

I've been thinking about maybe trying a 3D printed version myself for a while and I wonder; what would you guys think about using a camshaft operated mechanism to deflect the magnet? Like a high performance ICE with a roller 'lifter' for minimum resistance, push rod and maybe even a rocker arm. We only need to move it a few mm, right?

I'm thinking the advantages would be that the spring could return some of it's force to the rotating assembly after passing TDC of the cam lobe, and the lobe being close to the center shaft would minimize power loss from leverage compared to an actuator at the edge of the rotor.

Regards,
Cadman

Hello Cadman!!


Long time friend!! (if you are the same member as in EF)


Thanks, and I am glad you do understand it perfectly!!


You do have a pretty great idea, as all you have said is right...


I said before that a Cam-Cam follower will not give the desired Spike over Time versus Distance of Magnet traveled...I did before a Graph to Knovos, explaining it why...


And do not get me wrong, a Cam-Cam follower may work as long as Timing is set correctly, meaning, the separation can NOT start when Magnets BISECTORS are perfectly aligned, or even WORST, if separation starts BEFORE Perfect alignment, this will cause a reverse force opposing rotation sense!!


A Cam-Cam follower may work if timed right, HOWEVER, to start motor you will need to "shrink" or "sharpen" that "Smooth Slope" generated by Cam and Actuator or follower...
That means you will need to spin that rotor very fast before it starts to "fire up" and keep a constant rotation...

And the simplest way to do that is to add a small cord, wrapped around rotor shaft and pulling it, like you start a small lawnmower or weed eater ICE.


Now the HUGE difference is when you have achieved a very sharp response stroke, traveling a big distance at separation,  with a very short, smooth "touch" of your "Triggering" mechanism.


When you have achieved that, then, it would take just ONE single turn, and your motor will start right away!!


Right now I am working on a setup, where by just pushing around 2mm at trigger (INPUT) , it will produce a very fast BACK & FORTH movement of around 15 mm backwards and then, iso facto, immediately, it will kick back 15mm to "Reset positioning" or back to "Neutral ON"...at OUTPUT.


And you can achieve that as well, it is based on Lever-Fulcrum advantages, roller levers, and combinations of both springs types, compression and tension (as return springs).




Regards Friend!!




Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

I'm working on this idea now.
You can see an animation of this here:
Third mechanism in this vid at 00:54
https://youtu.be/X4g8FTn2iQo

Hi Knovos!!


Yes, I like that idea!!


Point is, you will have to measure the initial force (Input) required to push or "charge" that mechanism, and then compare it with your magnet force developed at the traveled distance it will generate.


And this is it guys!!...it is about simple comparison of forces, and if your mechanical input force is greater than magnet repulse force it will simply NOT work.


Now, remember there are ways to "trick" lowering the applied forces at input, using levers which reduce your force, by traveling a longer distance, but using much less force.


And here I will give you an example:


Say your magnet produces 20 Newtons of Force at approx 7mm of travel distance from Attract Stator Magnet...
Let say the mechanism that you developed -like shown here- needs like 30 Newtons of force to charge input spring...it does not look good here...BUT
Then, you use a 2:1 Ratio lever bracket where you will apply your trigger force at the longer side (2) and the shorter end of lever will connect and apply the force right at the Input spring.


Your result will cut your Input Force exactly at half of the 30 Newtons required, meaning, you will only need 15 Newtons to charge input spring...and vualá...you got it...it should run now.


The relation "Formula" to a very fast motor, is simple...the LESSER the Force required at Trigger or Input, the greater your Repulse Force would be, the Faster and Stronger your Motor will run.


Remember, your Input Force to Trigger your Mechanism will be "Your Motor Drag" opposing to rotation at every single stroke, and remember this triggering takes place TWICE per RPM.


You need to plan all this in a 2D simple CAD...testing all your distances and strokes or turning rotations accurately.


Also you will need to first than anything, measure your initial spring force, related to the distance traveled...it is very important to choose the right spring here...and only with a Digital Gauge like I have shown before, you could see the real data of all your setup...otherwise, you will only be "guessing" in your build model...and success is never guaranteed.




Cheers




Ufopolitics


PD: You will also will need to design a Return mechanism, which recharges or "reloads" system automatically after discharge...

[floodrod]

Hello Floodrod,


I am who built the model...as I have explained how it works on the video.


It would be VERY important that you all FIRST understand the MAIN Principle involved here:



Negative, I am not going to say you are 100% wrong, but that is not the main force propulsing the rotor.


I have measured (with a Digital Push-Pull Gauge) the Repulsion Force, exactly at 180º apart, and it is mainly this force what generates rotation.


The separation of the Attract Field, as you said, since Bisector at rotor is slightly off, or away towards the rotation sense, it will cause "some" force, but very slightly, and only for very short timing.


The Main Concept here is FIRST about Balancing Magnetic Forces of opposed origin (Attract-Repulse) exactly at 180º apart. And here is where "the magic is"...


So, the way this works is to WEAKEN one of the Field Forces, in order that the opposed one will gain FULL FORCE

I mean guys, this principle is SO SIMPLE, so easy to understand, that I really don't see the point trying to complicate it with "cutting flux" or any other "theoretical assumptions" which have NOT being verified like I have done by now.


Now, how do I weaken my Attraction Field Force?


By setting the Attract GAP FURTHER AWAY from other Source (Rotor)


Once that I do that, the Repulsion will gain FULL FORCE...and the way it works is perfectly as simplest MATHEMATICAL DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL EQUATION.


The longer the separation distance of the Attract Field, the HIGHER and STRONGER the Repulsion would become.


And this could be measured to the exact Newtons/ mm Distance Travel with the Force Gauge and a "gig" you will need to make.


Note: It is pretty hard to achieve Neutralization perfect balancing of TWO MAGNETS, so staring with a FOUR MAGNETS setup, without getting first the "touch" to do it with only two magnets, simple...does not make any sense to me, honestly!!


And btw, I have tried "Magnetic Shielding" with the expensive metals required... And NOPE, it does NOT work...Magnetic DRAG from a Magnet to Steel, is still present.


And Guys, I am just trying for you NOT TO WASTE your time building useless stuff...or going the wrong paths...I want you to succeed all the way...


Cheers




Ufopolitics

Thank You.  I reviewed the video slowly step by step and am now in understanding.

I am still going to finish my build, even though it is not the same. But I won't clog this thread with it.  If I have anything worthy to show when done I will start my own.

I look forward to seeing updates from both you and Knovos.

[Cadman]

Hello Cadman!!


Long time friend!! (if you are the same member as in EF)
.........

And do not get me wrong, a Cam-Cam follower may work as long as Timing is set correctly, meaning, the separation can NOT start when Magnets BISECTORS are perfectly aligned, or even WORST, if separation starts BEFORE Perfect alignment, this will cause a reverse force opposing rotation sense!!

A Cam-Cam follower may work if timed right, HOWEVER, to start motor you will need to "shrink" or "sharpen" that "Smooth Slope" generated by Cam and Actuator or follower...
That means you will need to spin that rotor very fast before it starts to "fire up" and keep a constant rotation...

And the simplest way to do that is to add a small cord, wrapped around rotor shaft and pulling it, like you start a small lawnmower or weed eater ICE.
...

Hi Ufo! Yes that's me, I get around between here, OUR and EF. And yes a long time indeed!

I did a quick concept drawing and I can see everything you're saying. This one came up with 16 degrees to go from 0 to 3.5 mm. That could be reduced but not by much.
If I try this it will have to have a flywheel as well as a way to adjust the cam centerline timing, I think.

Remember the way they used to graph steam engine strokes? I can't remember what they called them, but what if you attached a degree paper to your rotor and a pen to your magnet and ran your motor to produce a stroke vs. rotation graph of the magnet. Well, that would be very interesting, but I don't seriously suggest you do that.

Good luck with your motor improvements! A lot of people are watching.

Regards,
Cadman

[knovos]

Remember, your Input Force to Trigger your Mechanism will be "Your Motor Drag" opposing to rotation at every single stroke, and remember this triggering takes place TWICE per RPM.

Thank you Ufopolitics for all the advice. Everything is very clear to me. I ordered magnets the same size but N52's. I already saw in your video that mine are way too weak. I don't have measurement equipment for measuring forces in Newton or even a gauss meter. What I can do is make everything as light as possible, springs, slidings pushing forces whatever. There will be a lot of tweaking for sure. If it doesn't work I keep saying "then you are doing something wrong" the technique WORKS. In a week the magnets will be delivered, I will be back!