need help with wikipedia 11 September liars

[bobinaccounting]

If you think I'm pissed because of the monetary cost of gas, you missed the point completely. I?m not interested in attacking anyone?s beliefs but I think as intelligent human beings we should be prepared to question our beliefs ? and the people who encourage us to make life decisions based on the information they give us.

[shruggedatlas]

What are we talking about here? The TRUTH, and Gaby is standing on the high ground. People like Shruggedatlas have been misled and have not done enough homework. You could show them a orange and tell them its a apple and they would believe you. People are brainwashed, Just look at former Sgt. Danner, I guess they didn?t teach him anything about physics during sleep deprivation at boot camp? Keep following orders Jar head I feel a lot safer knowing your protecting what few freedoms I have left. Oh wait? I thought the terrorist could never take our freedoms away? No only the corrupt Politician's can do that. Also you could have tried harder in Iraq, I?m still paying $3.00 a gallon for gas. Am I pissed? You bet. And when you finally wake up you will be also. Thanks for playing.

Here?s something to think about, If you could fill your car up with your water hose every morning, why do you need a gas station every 2 miles? What industry is the largest political contributor? What reason DO you have to trust the government?


Lovingly, Bob in accounting

With regard to our men in the military, I will quote George Orwell: "We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us."  You, sir, seem like an ingrate with your attitude.  But hey, we have fought wars to give people like you the right to say ungrateful things, so you just keep at it.

As far as filling your car up with water, nothing is stopping you from inventing your own water-powered engine and bringing it to market.  Oh, you do not have the technical skill?  Then, don't complain because it is not handed to you.  Oh wait, I know, Big Oil will send men to get you if you do, right?  Then open source it.  Oh wait, you do not have the technical skill, so never mind.  Just shell out the cash and moan, then.

Incidentally, if you worked a little harder and/or smarter, that $3 per gallon would not seem like such a hit in the pocketbook.  Try running your own business, or are you the kind of person that works for the man and then complains about the man keeping you down?

[gaby de wilde]

I asked for your help and you talk bullshit.

View a video apologist morons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Khut8xbXK8

Youtube??
Of course, everything over there is credible!

You are right, you should be looking at this show on the official pinkyshow homepage.

http://pinkyshow.org/archives/episodes/070525/

Excuse me for my incredible laziness. I mean combined with yours it's quite an impossible mission to get any words accross. So in case you view the video I should exploit that opportunity to make you look at the rest of pinky's fantastic work.

I will try be less lazy from now on. ok?

[chadj2]

Shruggedatlast,

     You made a very insightful statement at the end of your points in which you were addressing my arguments. For every point you make, I will be more likely to be more skeptical of the government and this discussion will never end. That is dead on and you were able to see it more clearly and quickly that I was able to. Ultimately the main disagreement that we have is that I am appearantly a thousand times more suspicious of the Government and coorporate influence than you are, and who knows you may be right and this is just another false alarm. I dont believe I am behaving irrational or paranoid and I will explain why. I do enjoy studying history somewhat and one thing I constantly run across is that human government no matter what nation or race given enough time WITHOUT EXCEPTION slides toward tyranny and dictatorship. Think about all the powerful governements throughout history and where they ended up and what path they took getting there. I am simply assuming that the people in charge of our government are the same as the people that were in charge of those other governments in the past that eventually slid downhill. Attacking your own population with terrorists attacks to get them to react a certain way is absolutely not unprecedented. The Japanese blew up their own railroads to justify going into Manchuria in WWII. The Germans destroyed their own Reichstag to allow them to pass something similr to the Patriot Act. Governments also historically have had no problem whatsoever slaughtering their own people to further whatever crazy agenda that have had back then. In fact the worst attrocities commited against a population are pretty much always done be one's own government. This once again cuts across all nations and racial lines. White Russians had no problem setting up machine guns behind soldiers to make sure that they could not retreat or they would be shot. Stalin and his soldiers also had no problem killing millions of their own countrymen for as far as I can tell almost no reason. Pol Pot and his helpers slaughtered millions of Cambodians for some strange idea involving moving out of the cities to a more rural life and never repented. Chairman Mao had no problem killing millions of his countrymen during the cultural revolution. In Rwanda you had the dominant group of people have no problem killing millions of their fellow countrymen for another pretty much stupid reason when you look back on it now. After the French revolution you have the revolutionaries start slaughtering thousands of French people for silly suspicions. My point is look at human governments track record. Why should I give them the benefit of the doubt when they keep doing the same thing over and over again? Why should I trust them if they offer no transparancy? It seems like every question is blocked by "denied due to NATIONAL SECURITY." I know you dont believe that your government really represents you or that your vote counts anywhere near as much as what the cooporate lobbyist instructs the politician to do. Given this information, I know that ALL powerful governments go bad; and we all know that our government is run by cooporate lobbyists I dont think it is an illogical leap for me suspect the government is behind certain attacks that benefit both the powerful coorporations by dramatically increasing profit and benefit the government by greatly increasing and enhancing its power over the citizenry.

[shruggedatlas]

I do enjoy studying history somewhat and one thing I constantly run across is that human government no matter what nation or race given enough time WITHOUT EXCEPTION slides toward tyranny and dictatorship. Think about all the powerful governements throughout history and where they ended up and what path they took getting there.

You are wise to be skeptical of government actions.  I am a strong believer that organizations like the ACLU and such, while they sometimes take wrongheaded positions, are critical to the long term freedoms we cherish, because they are constantly vigilant of the government abusing its power.

That said, I think it is overly paranoid to assume that we are constantly sliding into tyranny and see the absolute worst angle in every government action, to the point of ignoring all evidence to the contrary.  Even Noam Chomsky, the famous liberal and one of the most vehement critics of the current administration, thinks the 9.11 conspiracy theories are bunk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzGd0t8v-d4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDqDvbgeXM

Finally, remember that in two years, Bush and the administration will be out of office, and not through the use of force, but peacefully.  The Republican party is already out of power in both houses of congress, again, peacefully. We still have the freedom of the press and we still have the right to openly ridicule the government (well, you may not think this if you read conspiracy theories exclusively, but let me assure you, no one will arrest you for your political blog entries).  The fact that the 9/11 conspiracy theories are on full display on many U.S. based webservers is ironic evidence of our continued freedom of speech and of the press.  Why are they not shut down?  If you can get away with crashing 4 planes and taking down a few buildings, what's pulling the plug on a few hundred servers?

Anyway, I hope you can keep up your critical reasoning.