HHO vehical / law of conservation

[farleft]

In respects to the law of conservation?
I?m having a hard time w/ the idea of HHO supplemented vehicle?  If it takes x joules to break the electron bond of H and O then combining them to make electricity via hydrogen cell would produce x joules electricity. It should be the same!  But using HHO to supplement an IC engine produces seeming substantial results.  How?  If the amount of gasoline used is the difference of power needed to produce HHO and drive vehicle and the power generated by burning the HHO. Then the difference is the power the required to operate the car? the same as it was before the HHO was introduced?  I know there is a respective gain, but I can seem to wrap my head around it.

I Wish Us All The Best
     FarLeft

[IronHead]

You have to include the calculate of the expansion rate of Hydrogen and Oxygen as a combustion fuel.
You also have to calculate the gasoline that is more efficiently burn as it is mixed with HHO in the combustion chamber . Not an easy task

This also does not include the effect of super heating water vapor near the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms as they combined. Look up the temperature at which water vapor will explosively disassociate and recombined seemingly simultaneously. This may or may not be happening.

There are many factors here
IronHead

[Creativity]

As for now i am sure that one could not run a car fully on HHO,as a self sustained process.I mean on-board production of HHO by only electrolysis from car battery and alternator and not draining your battery is not doable.Simply because burning HHO will give us less work than we put into electrolysis.
Electrolysis on a level of 80% efficiency,engine on a level of 30% efficiency,alternator efficiency of 60% says it all.Having that in mind any introducing HHO as a fraction of the fuel has to be collided with the energy used for this HHO production.

Now simple example:
A car got HHO as a fraction of our fuel.HHO is being produced in an on-board electrolyser using 200W of power.Our engine will see an extra load of  333W due to alternator loses.Turning the alternator will cost our engine extra fuel equivalent to 1111W due to engine loses.
So we can speak about the improvement of the whole system,if the HHo produced can lead us to a minimum of 1111W of engine power improvement.

I believe that there is a lower and upper limit ratio of HHO that is usefull.Under the lower limit,the amount of HHO will be unsubstantial to the overall engine working.Above the upper level the amount of fuel used by our car (next to HHO ) won't be enough to support the energy for the extensive HHO production needs due to overall system low efficiency.

Although i see it is possible to achieve some extra mileage by adding some HHO to fuel of a car.H2 gives substantial capacity of improvements.Such a mixture of HHO and fuel will allow faster and more complete burn of fuel.Faster burn means:
- you loose less energy into exhaust (especially at higher rpm's burning process continues in the exhaust manifold-fuel had simply not enough time to burn inside of the cylinder and so fails to deliver usable work.Burning with HHO can also decrease average backpressure in the exhaust manifold,and allow finer wave tuning of an engine due to stronger wave amplitudes at opening of the exhaust valve.)
-less energy lost on exhaust stroke because less charge is being burned and sustaining equal or rising pressure in this stroke.
-also less thermal loses to the cylinder wall,piston and cylinder head due to reduction of time-area that comes into the direct contact with flame
-probably improved volumetric efficiency of the engine.(intake stroke can introduce more fuel/air mixture as fresh charge has slower heat build up from cylinder walls,piston,and head.)

Adding HHO would allow:
- retarding ignition timing(faster burn means faster pressure build up and less time needed for max cycle pressure to occur,that is why ignition can be started closer to the TopDeadCenter,reducing negative work done on compressing of a charge that is already burning)more torque,more mileage especially on higher rpm's.
- bringing compression ratio higher(faster burn and colder head reduces the risk of predetonation to occur)bringing higher mileage and more torque.
-finer wave tuning,more torque,more mileage.
-further lean out the charge for better mileage preserving the same power.

Let us see how introducing of HHO can affect the volumetric efficiency.H2 O2 mixture after electrolysis is being mixed with air and fuel droplets.Liquid form of fuel occupies a very little of the fresh charge volume(of course vaporisation takes place but it is time and conditions dependend)..Let us negate the liquid fuel.H2 O2 on the other hand is a gas,we have 2 times more volume of H than O.For us the most interesting gas is an Oxygen that we use to burn the fuel,less oxygen gives us less fuel that we can burn with it and so less torque.Oxygen comes with the air.Let us say we have a 100 units of air we use to run our engine 21 units are oxygen.Now suppose we introduce 3 units of HHO,that is one unit of oxygen and 2 of H.We can only suck 100units into the engine,so when introducing HHO we will suck 97units of air and 3 units of HHO.Here comes a happy part.In 3 units of air that couldn't be sucked in,there was 0.6 unit of oxygen.But in 3 units we introduced with HHO there was 1 unit of O.
It looks like introducing of HHO even in the gaseous form does not rub our engine out of oxygen.

Conclusion is that introducing HHO can improve engine mileage,but i would not expect high gains on unmodified engine.As i see it the gain will occur on high rpms when the charge fast burning rate substantially decrease the the thermodynamic loses.

[NerzhDishual]

Hi blokes,

Just my 2ct.
IMHO, accurate calculations of Power-in/Power-out with electrolysis;
sort of "Faraday deal": you give me 2 moles of electrons and I give you back one mole
of H2 - one mole of H2 is about 22.4 liters, one liter of H2 gives you ... etc...etc...
Are irrelevant.

Why?
Because we cannot precisely figure out what the f/b heck is really going on in a f/b motor!
Because a very simple device as, for example,  the "VORTEX VALVE(TM)" can gives
you until 25% or even 30%  of fuel consumption saving.

Two Detroit HUMMER dealers dared to fit up this VORTEX VALVE in theirs vehicles and were
frowned upon By General Motors engineers.  This is a rough translation from Canadian language :
http://www4.autonet.ca/FR/Nouvelles/article.php?file=/Nouvelles/2006/08/01/1713805.html
Guess why?

I'm even not talking about the Pogue Carburator the Firestrom spark plug and all
these kind of funny efficient gizmos (when well tuned).

Best

[Creativity]

well we can figure out what is going on inside it very well ( at every established university mechanics department has simulators to run the mathematics behind reactions like this).Engine is not a black box a long time already...there are tons of books about it and no magic inside.Other thing is ,what is put there on the market already by car manufacturers.They just do as much as let them to stay in balance with concurrents,it is simply not economical to innovate in this well established industry (follow not lead business strategy).

gadgets you spoke about are all about well known facts.Evaporated fuel burns faster and fully compared to the poor evaporated conditions.Another way is to spray fuel into smaller droplets.A swirl or vortex inside of the combustion chamber aids the even distribution of fuel and good mix of it with the air,next to it it makes the ignition flame to travel faster.Again faster burn and a full one,reduced predetonation risico.No magic.For example Honda is using variable lift of intake valves to introduce swirl in the combustion chamber.Spark with higher energy discharge can ignite a leaner air/fuel mixture.
nothing new and all of it aids the lover use of fuel.