Muller Dynamo

[conradelektro]

Timing seems to be very important when running the Muller Generator:

Look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af8fDeZC4Pc&feature=youtube_gdata_player (Carmen Miller- NEMCA talk on Muller Magnetic Motor) starting at minute 48:00. (The whole video might be worth viewing. To understand my point, just watch a few minutes starting with minute 48:00).

The speaker explaining the latest version of the Muller Generator (an effort led by his daughter Carmen, in winter 2010) stresses the importance of timing. An encoder and a microprocessor are employed to get it right. Each coil can be used as a motor coil or a generator coil (in order to test all possibilities). So, more or less coils can drive the motor and the rest is generating power. They also can define the polarity of the current going into the drive coils.

No OU is claimed at this point. But they hint at it, by saying that the motor starts to run with an input voltage of 0.6 Volt. With the extremely strong magnets built in one can imagine a high Voltage at the generator coils even at very low rotary speed (of course one would need to know amperage at 0.6 Volt to judge efficiency).

For the replicators it means, that timing should not be underestimated, it is probably the key to success.

One should first create a very flexible timing scheme (rotary encoder of high precision and microprocessor) driven by its own battery. And only later, when some considerable power comes out of the generator coils, one could try to harvest the power for the control circuit as well.

As I see it, some sophisticated control means should not need more power than about 0.5 Watt (100 mA at 5 Volt).

This encoder needs about 70 mA at 5 Volt (a microprocessor can be run with a few mA at 5 Volt):

http://at.farnell.com/avago-technologies/aedb-9140-a14/encoder-3channel-500cpr-5mm-scheibe/dp/1161089

The encoder gives "angles", therefore all timing would be independent of "rotary speed". The hall sensors are then obsolete. The only "sensor" would be the rotary encoder (which also gives a zero position signal at each revolution allowing for compensation of all errors accumulated during one revolution).

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I have got the encoder mentioned above and various microprocessors. The big hurdle for me are the mechanics. (The pulse motors I built wobbled a lot and suffered from high friction.) I might go for it, once the first test results from the replicators are in. Near unity would be enough for me to become a believer.

[nul-points]

hi Conrad

while i agree with you re: control aspects on a system like Bill Muller's, you only have to look at Romero's minimal design to see that he (R) didn't need anything of the sort

reading further into details about Muller's developments you can find that Muller had a variable drive scheme which adapted to the power level it had reached

his system started up with all or most coils as both drive & gen, with a 'rolling' switching scheme - but then at cruising speed it switched to use only 3 coils for the drive

why?

i believe that his larger more massive machines needed extra relative energy input to get them started, and then once they had achieved some momentum it was possible to continue the drive with significantly less power in

i believe that Romero's design was able to get sufficient drive from the 'get go' with only the two drive pairs, and that's all he needed throughout

although it appears rather 'roughly' lashed together (as Romero himself would admit , by comparison, say, with SkyCollection's builds) there is no denying that Romero's solution is elegantly 'minimal'

and it gets the job done

this is Proof-of-Principle engineering to be proud of - i salute his achievement!
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com

[ZeroFossilFuel]

Okay, boys and girls. I watched the videos that Stephan archived, read through the PDF he compiled and read through the first 40 pages or so of this thread. I must first say thank you to Stephan for making sure the information Romero published survives. Very well done. I too have kept archives of them all.

Secondly, despite my earlier criticism, the evidence is most compelling. After reading a post from Romero where he lamented 400+ email in one day, all I could think to myself was "welcome to my world". It must have been overwhelming and THAT is probably the reason he bailed.

I want everyone to know that I am throwing my hat into the ring also. To that end I just ordered 26 3/4"x3/8" N42s from a supplier that Larry Newell turned me on to, Applied Magnets http://www.magnet4less.com/  I still need to find bobbins, ferrite cores and Litz wire. It may be covered in this thread somewhere but it takes a long time to find. If anyone can steer me to some good sources it would be appreciated.

Stephan, a compilation of recommended vendors sifted out from this thread might be good to add to the PDF as well as pin to the first page.

This is going to be our topic for the Smart Scarecrow Show on Justin.tv http://justin.tv/smartscarecrow , Thursday night May 19 at 9pm EST. I hope most of you will join us. Romero, if you're seeing this, I hope you will consider being part of our Skype conference. I know that will keep you up between 1-2 am your time. Just take a nap after dinner! 

Best to all,
Z

[Pirate88179]

Okay, boys and girls. I watched the videos that Stephan archived, read through the PDF he compiled and read through the first 40 pages or so of this thread. I must first say thank you to Stephan for making sure the information Romero published survives. Very well done. I too have kept archives of them all.

Secondly, despite my earlier criticism, the evidence is most compelling. After reading a post from Romero where he lamented 400+ email in one day, all I could think to myself was "welcome to my world". It must have been overwhelming and THAT is probably the reason he bailed.

I want everyone to know that I am throwing my hat into the ring also. To that end I just ordered 26 3/4"x3/8" N42s from a supplier that Larry Newell turned me on to, Applied Magnets http://www.magnet4less.com/  I still need to find bobbins, ferrite cores and Litz wire. It may be covered in this thread somewhere but it takes a long time to find. If anyone can steer me to some good sources it would be appreciated.

Stephan, a compilation of recommended vendors sifted out from this thread might be good to add to the PDF as well as pin to the first page.

This is going to be our topic for the Smart Scarecrow Show on Justin.tv http://justin.tv/smartscarecrow , Thursday night May 19 at 9pm EST. I hope most of you will join us. Romero, if you're seeing this, I hope you will consider being part of our Skype conference. I know that will keep you up between 1-2 am your time. Just take a nap after dinner! 

Best to all,
Z

I have followed your work and watched many of your videos on youtube and I am happy to see you are getting into this.  With all of the smart guys we have here, I believe we can get this replication completed.

Bill

[k4zep]

Hello Ben,

i know Romero more than anyone here i guess so i feel that i somehow should answer that question.
I have replicated more than 3 or 4 OU promising devices conceived by Romero, being all of them short of OU. Afterwards, indeed, he admitted his inspirations were not OU but close to it. (not selfrunning or anything promised or claimed to had achieved by them)

....
This observation, you made i made during posting his 1st video. i told him so, and he somehow got angry with me. (I am a sceptic still being an experimenter).
Then when he assembled his self runner it was specially made for me.
They were not few the times that i had strong disagreement with  Romero regarding his observations and measuring techniques since he refrained far from any contemporary scientific approach that despises a bit. He is guided from an inner inspiration and an untiring mood and for new experiments.

This is very well demonstrated in his forum that we had this post-exchange. (i have posted back ben forum's last 2 pages in zip. download and see yourself)
In my accusations,   Romero replied that his motor had an energy re-cycle procedure (flyback harvest i suppose) that is not depicted in any diagram so far put forth. This flyback energy collection goes to common power rails as the FWBRs after the pick up coils.

So, for a given battery (that must be partially depleted) when idle voltage is 12.65, when running with flyback on, (since motor underunity and pickup coils should output less than 12,3 volts) then voltage declines below 12.45 (as per video). When load on, (on the common power rails) voltage should decline to a level that is suitably supported by the battery and pickup coils.
In anyway, this video is totally inconclusive of the OU potential of this device.

....
Personally, i am not motivated to make a replica because of a self-running video, rather than because i know Romero and respect him.
My advice is try to replicate the device as closely as possible, suppressing your urge to "grab a concept" and improvise.

I will do this way, myself.

A word of reason and conviviality in the midst is refreshing.  Thank you for your insight into the overall time line of Romero's creative
inner self.  My device will be as close to his as I can make it.  It is not something that I can not do fast with my limited workspace but it
will happen. 

Do you have any idea what the real RPM's of his rotor was?  The 1000 or so RPM tossed around sounds very low to my "Musical" ear and
experience in listing to those pulse motors hammer along.  The fact that I can hear absolutely no rpm change with load is a puzzle and
can only be attributed to excellent balance of a loaded generator with perfect cancellation.

Again, thanks for the excellent post.

Ben K4ZEP