The Tesla Project

[Ren]

Is the second relay used to oscillate the potential from the secondary cap into the load?

[allcanadian]

Here is a neat circuit I have been testing which may look familiar, starting at the negative terminal it includes --- a high self inductance, a low self inductance, a capacitor and the positive terminal of a battery. It also includes a circuit disrupter or switch to disrupt current flow. The scopeshot included is from this circuit, from a single 12v pulse through the switch.
This scopeshot had been bothering me for some time, there is something odd about it I could not figure out. The oscilloscope probes were placed across the capacitor. For one the input pulse is 12v, but notice in the scopeshot the smaller waveform outlined in red to the left is approximately 50v not 12v. The larger waveform, the inductive dicharge current is about 250v. Near the center of the scopeshot I had highlighted the waveforms in blue (inductive discharge) and red, notice how both waveforms rise and fall in the same instance and that below the black line or zero voltage boundary constituting a change in direction the pattern repeats. So we could say our waveforms follow each other and change direction together. What is odd is that there are two currents here, it seems that the inductive discharge current leaves the high self inductance travels through the low self inductance(primary) and charges the capacitor plate ----- this would compress the 12v (red) charge that was on the other plate to 50v which is forced into the batteries (+) terminal. This higher potential on the battery and capacitor plate then pushes the (blue) inductive discharge current back in the opposite direction through the low self inductance and back against the high self induction producing the dampened series of oscillations we see in the scopeshot. So in this case the battery would seem to have the elastic qualities of a capacitor. What is not expected is that the (blue)inductive discharge current and (red) conventional current would seem to retain there distinct qualities while being seperated by the elastic qualities of the capacitor, the capacitor acting as an elastic boundary between the two currents.
Hopefully this may help you in solving erfinders challenge.
Regards

[wattsup]

@All

Had I not gone to a party last night (got in very late), I had started to prepare a post quoting the same passage of Teslas' patent. I knew it was the key.

The reason for my question about the ohm of my relays, it was evident that my relay either alone or even paired (series not possible and parallel ran the voltage of the battery down to 12.7 which never happened before), which I tried was not providing the proper self-induction (given the relays very small furty coil) but the problem was no other component was permitted in the materials list to act as a chocking coil, until today.

Anyways, when I ordered my transformer, I ordered two just in case, so back to the drawing board.

Funny thing, under my initial (one relay) diagram, my standard transformer (240-24vdc) worked much better then the toroid. I made voltages up to 94 vdc. But with the toroid, voltage would go up to around 18vdc. I tried both with pulsed primary and pulsed secondary and both had about the same results. And amazingly, the voltage on my battery is now back to 12.8. There is definitely some power being fed back to the battery, either as power or as a harmonic. I can probably prove this by adding a diode on the battery to prevent any flyback.

I had also noticed at with a very small voltage value of the primary capacitor, the relay would switch just enough to connect to the N/O contact, but very lightly so there was not enough contact. Definitely the relays had to work a tad slower so the choke coil will help.

Will do some ohms measuring of my coils and do some more tests and let you know here.

@Erfinder

I just need to know if I manage to get this working at a stupendous level, do I have permission to post it here, as is, since I do not want to get into a situation similar to @innovationstation (hey where is he anyways).

Added:

@allcanadian

Thanks for your post also. Very apropos. I will do some scope shots also when it is time and let you guys explain them since I will surely not be able to.

[armagdn03]

Here is a neat circuit I have been testing which may look familiar, starting at the negative terminal it includes --- a high self inductance, a low self inductance, a capacitor and the positive terminal of a battery. It also includes a circuit disrupter or switch to disrupt current flow. The scopeshot included is from this circuit, from a single 12v pulse through the switch.
This scopeshot had been bothering me for some time, there is something odd about it I could not figure out. The oscilloscope probes were placed across the capacitor. For one the input pulse is 12v, but notice in the scopeshot the smaller waveform outlined in red to the left is approximately 50v not 12v. The larger waveform, the inductive dicharge current is about 250v. Near the center of the scopeshot I had highlighted the waveforms in blue (inductive discharge) and red, notice how both waveforms rise and fall in the same instance and that below the black line or zero voltage boundary constituting a change in direction the pattern repeats. So we could say our waveforms follow each other and change direction together. What is odd is that there are two currents here, it seems that the inductive discharge current leaves the high self inductance travels through the low self inductance(primary) and charges the capacitor plate ----- this would compress the 12v (red) charge that was on the other plate to 50v which is forced into the batteries (+) terminal. This higher potential on the battery and capacitor plate then pushes the (blue) inductive discharge current back in the opposite direction through the low self inductance and back against the high self induction producing the dampened series of oscillations we see in the scopeshot. So in this case the battery would seem to have the elastic qualities of a capacitor. What is not expected is that the (blue)inductive discharge current and (red) conventional current would seem to retain there distinct qualities while being seperated by the elastic qualities of the capacitor, the capacitor acting as an elastic boundary between the two currents.
Hopefully this may help you in solving erfinders challenge.
Regards

Very cool! Look very closely at those shots, and you will notice that they do not just "rise and fall" together, but that their relationship is slightly more complicated. You will notice that the peak of one, does not line up with the peak of the other, in fact they are shifted from one another. Those in EE will not be surprised with this, but it is very interesting when you consider we are looking at votage in a scope.

The two currents you are speaking of, are actually one current, being measured at different points and showing different time relationships. They are 90 degrees out of phase with one another, and interestingly they display the EXACT same characteristics as say a pendulum. Look at a pendulum and you will notice that the kenetic energy (movement energy) is 90 degrees out of phase with the Potential (static energy). In fact all oscillatory systems behave in a way similar to this.

What becomes even more interesting is noting how where the peaks are maximum and what this means, and where they are minimum and knowing what this represents, what is not shown on the scope, but inffered (the scope will not measure many things) is just as important also.

For example, minimum voltage could equate to maximum current, but this is not shown. These are not curious things if you start thinking about the actual physics of how these devices work, not just accepting that they do. What are capacitors and inductors, find out exactly how they behave with one another.

And good circuit!

[wattsup]

@all

First off I found this off topic write up on velocity factors that touches upon alot of what is being discussed these days on the threads. Please pass it on.

http://www.qsl.net/vk5br/TransLines.htm

This is me thinking out load.

- Brain on -

OK, Erfinder says the toroid secondary should be between the relay coil and the short circuit contact and his is 21.5 ohms. He says his relay is 144 ohms. There is required a second transformer and his primary of that transformer is 21.5 to 24 ohms.

My two identical toroids are as follows;

Primary is a dual coil of 110vac in parallel or 220vac in series. Each coil is 5.7 ohms each, in parallel 2.8 ohms and in series 11.6 ohms

Secondary is a dual coil of 12vac in parallel or 24vac in series. Each coil is 0.1 ohms each, in parallel 0.2 ohms and in series 0.1 ohms.

My 12vdc relays are 93.9 and 94.2 ohms.

I also have another 240vac to 24 vac transformer but the primary is only 7.2 ohms and the secondary is again 0.1 ohms.

So I went today to my local EE outlet and spent a good 1 1/2 hours with my multimeter checking an endless number of transformers for their ohms. The transformers that are in the range of 240/12vac at 8-10 amps are now where near the ohmage ratings required. I found a few choke coils with like 34 ohms the size of a quarter, very tiny so impossible to handle the amps ratings.

I checked all the solenoid ohms, most where in the 1000s range, checked industrial relay coils also in the 1000s, then all types of transformers but nothing, I mean nothing comes close to those specs. I even compared my multimeter to one in store to make sure mine was working properly and it does.

- Brain off - ( I know - it's always off. ya ya) lol

I am lost. The main point is with all the info Erfinder gave on this thread, there is more then enough info for a build, but the specs don't make sense to me, and when it does not make sense in my mind, I usually don't move until it does. If I need a toroid secondary of around 21.5 ohms, I would need 215 of my current toroids in series. Ouch. Do I need to make my own choke?

Does anyone have any suggestions?