The Problem with Overunity. A different approach.

[shruggedatlas]

You are describing a long standing debate among linguists - which comes first, thought or word?  From one standpoint, until someone first has a particular thought or observation, there can exist no word for it, so the thought must come first.  But from another standpoint, without words to describe certain concepts, a person will never have that thought.  This latter theory reminds me of Orwell's 1984, where the government seeks to eliminate politically undesireable words from the language in order to make "thoughtcrime" not merely illegal, but in fact impossible.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between.  It takes one exceptional person to come up with a word to describe a new concept, and then the word is taught to others, who, without that word, would have never arrived at that thought on their own.

[loop888]

plus,
i think "structure of language" don't refer to language, words, knowledge and all that we learn and use, but the way we use it.
the way of thinking.

[hansvonlieven]

G?day all?

You are right on the money Loop! We don?t seem to have any problems creating words, though sometimes we have difficulties to explain definitively what they mean. Take the word chair for instance. Everyone knows what that is. Even if you show some modernistic avant guard version of it to someone, they will eventually figure out it?s a chair.

Now try to define chair with a descriptor that matches all possible forms of chair and all you can come up with is ?Something to sit on?, which is of course idiotic and meaningless, since you can sit on all sorts of things.

In order to define chair you have to show a whole variety of them to get the concept across, from a dolls house chair to a Chippendale and so forth.

In spite of all these difficulties we can work with the concept ?chair?.

We do this with all kinds of things, old and well known, or just thought of.

This is not where the problem lies in my view. The problem comes in when we want to do something with the words, like thinking of, or communicating a CONCEPT.

Now we are bound by the rigid rules of sentence construction, like grammar and punctuation for instance. It is here where we are fettered and have nowhere near the flexibility we have with words.

In other words, more often than not, we arrive at a certain conclusion because of the way it is put rather than because of the words that were used to convey it.

This is where I see our mental prison.

Keep it coming, this is constructive, I think.

Hans von Lieven

[resonanceman]

Welcome  back Hans


It seems to me that  you are not  trying to  use words or intelect better .

It seems to me you are looking for  more intuition . ........ or a way to think more creatively .

Our culture    doesn't tend to  teach these things much

Most of what we are taught is how to be a good little citizen.



There is much more to  mind then we  have been taught.

Just because  it is not intelctual doesn't mean it is not thought .

Think  the intelectual  mind is  better than the  quieter  parts of the mind?
How  do babys   master   a  language  in  usually a year or so ? At the same time  learning  how to  control there muscles and learn  all about their  surroundings .
The  amount of  stuff a baby learns  before  practical   mastery of  language is  staggering  .


Intuition  and  creativity  come  from  a quieter  part of  the mind .
Some   get there by meditation .  I don't  think medition is what  you are looking for.






I  have always  invented things as a hobby .
I have learned to  " expect " an answer to come  when  I am stumped.

I simply  think  things through  as well as I can.
When I  reach a point that I can't  resolve .........I wait .
I don't  give up ......I  simply let the idea simmer in the  back of my mind . 
In time  I will have a flash ........an  Ah Ha moment ......and I will have my answer.

I  have had Ah Ha moments that have taken me  6 months to  understand intelctually .

These moments  are  almost  always  an image of some kind .   They  are  usually  "fully cooked "  an idea  arrived at intellectually   usually  has to be thought  through .   These   ideas arrive complete .

If  you  are very observant  when you have an Ah Ha moment  you can see that  the thought started  much deeper ......and  you  just didn't notice it untill  it reached the intellectual mind.   


gary

[jeanna]

Ah yes Gary,

These moments  are  almost  always  an image of some kind .   They  are  usually  "fully cooked "  an idea  arrived at intellectually   usually  has to be thought  through .   These   ideas arrive complete .

You said the part I always have trouble with. fully cooked.

thank you, again. 

When I was in college, a friend walked into my room and suddenly said "house" then paused.

After that she asked if I had seen a house or the word written out as letters.

I had seen a picture.

She told me she had seen the word. I am amazed to this day that someone can reach a meaning by "seeing" the word.

jeanna