Magnetic Permeability ... I can't find anyone talking about this !!!!!

[nueview]

thank you Broli
you have raised two excellent points as to suturation and voltage from what reasoning did you add these to the equation i have seen voltage changes alter the resonance of tank circuits i know it effects the capacitance current flow perhaps not said properly but as to the inductor that as voltage goes up and frequency is any the current rises or falls i would think falls off hand should probably test this as well.
Martin

[Xaverius]

Xav,

Sounds like some interesting research you got going there... keep up the good work !

                       Ok... 10,000 times longer is enough for me to do the calculations.
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I calculated that a           l  =   1 meter long  Coil
                                        A  =  (.1)m² 
                                        N  =   2886 turns
                                        R  = 1 ohm
                                                                                             will have a rise time of 1 second.

              L = (uN²A)/l.        u = 1.2(10^-6)         t = L/R       

So throw in a Relatively Low Permeability core with a  u_r = 10,000

             L = u_r(uN²A)/l  (with core)                t = u_r(L/R)
 
You get 1 sec *10,000 = 10,000 seconds = 166 minutes = 2 hours 46 minutes.
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With no experimental data to back me up I emphatically say...

                                            A 3 Hour Rise Time???  No F__ing way ! 

So Super Perma Alloy with a permeability of 1,000,000 would take 300 hours? or around 2 weeks !  ?

                            I don't believe that for a second,... pun intended !
                            Heck, I wouldn't even believe a rise time of 1 day !
                            An Hour? Wouldn't beleive it !

                            I place my bets in the minutes to seconds category.
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Guess the only way to really know will be to do the tests myself.

With at home parts, I suppose I can make a core out of paper clips and estimate the u_r at 2,500 or so.
I have a bead on a cheap signal generator, so I am hoping that works out.

Good Day !
                   The Observer

Thanx for the encouragement, Observer, we all need all we can get!  In response to your example, this particular coil has fantastic dimensions: 1 meter in length, 16 square inches in cross sectional area, 2300 turns of wire at 1 ohm so three hours does not seem so impossible.  It's hard to imagine I know, but notice that Broli makes the good point that high ur materials have a low saturation level so these materials would have their rise time shortened before they could reach a large magnetic density.
BTW, how will you use a signal generator for the experiment.  It would be very difficult to verify the rise time of a device like you described because of construction limitations.  Good luck with what you pursue.

[armagdn03]

I think you are mistaken, and this is exactly how the real world works. The electromagnet in a junk yard is nowhere near 1 ohm 1000 henries, it is a fraction of that, yet they pour a ton of current through. This way you have a strong magnetic field which develops quickly.

Let me do another calculation to show you how big such a coil in my example would be.

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/Inductor/

I used this online calculator for which I have checked the math and it is decent.

For a one henry coil, 8 guage wire, 10inches diameter, and 10inches high, you would have a

Wire Length    of 6601.87 feet
Copper Weight of 329.93 pounds
at an ohmic resistance of 4.23 ohms

to get one ohm you would need to use guage 2 instead of 8 which would give around 1.03ohms
http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html
http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html

which gives us a coil weight of 1675 pounds!

This a ONE OHM ONE HENRY COIL!

we haven't even put the core in which throws our Heny's up to 1000,

Magnetic field strenght put out by an inductor is measured in amp turns, or amps x turns
Therefore you can pick up cars by reducing turns, increasing amps, and you have powerful magnet which has fast inductive rise time, this is exactly how it works.

My "non linear" systems are on youtube under user Tortuga0303
My brainchild is eccentric transformer theory, which I have discussed on the Energeticforum.com and now in depth with the stiffler scientific forum,

I am not here to share my systems, I am here keep people from being mislead, which is a waste of time for us all.

(note: the above calculations are not 100% accurate because as wire size changes so does the physical dimensions of the inductor causing a difference, but either way this is a close approximation to illustrate an example)

see my above post, The inductor you are talking about with such a huge rise time would be inconcievably large. Do you know how big a 1 henry inductor is? Its big, and certainly not 1 ohm, it will be many many more, meaning a quicker time constant, because we are dealing with a kinnetic force. Equate it to your breaks on the car, the higher the friction (ohmic resistance) the quicker it slows down. If you had an inductor the size you are talking about, it most certainly would take that long to rise.

Tell you what, make, build or get the biggest freaking coil you can get, measure its inductance  (tutorials are online, or you can buy a cheep meter) and then try and measure its rise time. You will never get the long rise times you are talking about because you will not find coils that large!

[The Observer]

Broli,

You said...

You will probably not have to wait that long depending on your voltage
Mumetal will long been saturated before you hit the ohmic current limit or the rise time constant.

I say... this is what I am talking about.

The Saturation of the Core depends on Current in the coil as depicted in a typical Hysteresis Loop.
Ferro Dipoles can turn easily.
The energy that needs to be conserved is that of electrons hooked up to an infinite battery.
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Again... A common speaker "leads out" unpaired electron energy.

             In other words each electron in a ferro can be appreciated as a small coil hooked up to a battery.
                   The Battery (whatever makes it spin or vibrate) is infinite
                       When a stray electron encounters an atom that will take it...
                            It gets in there, hooks up to the 'infinite battery, and starts producing a Mag Field.

You can build a speaker without Ferro... this means NO  ferro core OR magnet.

Now... Build two speakers... one regular... and one with 2 coils (1 for the magnet and 1 for the cone)

                                1) Tune Regular Speaker to a certain tone and volume.
                                 2) Tune Non Ferro Speaker to same tone and volume.

What's going to happen is that the Non Ferro Speaker is going to take WAY more energy to run.
                       
                                     Thus, one can arrive at a difference in energy calculation.

      Regular Ferro Speaker Energy - Non Ferro Speaker Energy = Energy Contributed by Ferro

                      To conserve energy we find that the unpaired electron loops = the missing energy.

There is no debunker in this world that can challenge this...it's too obvious !
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Xav thanks for you comment.

That is a big coil... to make 1 henry.
    I guess whoever made up that unit must have been working with some big coils !

I don't plan on building one that big.

I did, however, acquire a GoldStar Signal Generator for $35 yesterday.
So I will be able to make some simple coil/core setups and get some hands on experience.
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Anyone get what I am saying about the speaker??
                                                                                  The Observer

[e2matrix]

Any interesting finds yet with that new signal generator?  Do you have a scope also?  I can see there are a lot of people here with way more understanding of this than I have but I can try some things if I know what to try.  I've got scope, sig gen and lots of junk parts to play with.  But I'm really not clear as to what kind of tests can be done at this point.  I've been following Gotoluc's thread on his work with an oscillating toroid coil and magnet but I'm not sure that's related as he is using ferrite core material rather than iron.  I've got a huge steel or iron core toroid that came out of a UPS - like over 10 pounds and if I could do anything with that I'd be glad to try.  It's got two coils already wound on it - one about 50 turns and one about 350 turns.  I have tried putting it on a signal generator and scope but so far I haven't noticed anything interesting.  It does have certain resonant points where the power out goes up several times over non-resonant points.  I'm mostly rambling now but hopefully this may get this thread started up again.