Magnetic Permeability ... I can't find anyone talking about this !!!!!

[Sudonym]

Sudo,

A Newbie who's first words include "no free lunch".      hmm

       Then Gibberish such as this.
           You either miss the point that a piece of iron has zillions of rotatable magnetic dipoles...
                                                                            or
                            you are an infiltrator who's purpose is to confuse and misdirect.

Either way...
                 I ask you have some knowledge of what you speak of, before commenting in this thread.

                           The subject is Magnetic Permeability and the fact the most material's
                                       value is around 1 while Ferros are from 1000  to 1,000,000.

                                                     which relates to these subjects as well...
                    Magnetic Domains, Anisotropic Energy, Block Walls and Magnetic Coercitivity.
________________________________________________________________________________

SkyWatcher,

You said...
       Thankyou... Thankyou... Thankyou.
                                                                        I so appreciate someone else besides me saying this.

Now I don't make any claims about copper and other materials that have a Magnetic Permeability near 1.
         Meaning, they don't amplify or resist (diamagnetic)...  Magnetic fields much... hense the number 1.

But... FERROMAGNETIC MATERIALS do amplify Magnetic Fields by factors of 1000 to 1 Million !!!!
         hense the number 1 Million !

Key Points Include...

            1. Unpaired electrons in Ferros are mini coils that produce a magnetic field.
            2. These "coils" (aka magnetic dipoles)  rotate... some easy, some hard (Magnetic Coercitivity)
            3. Iron has a large magnetic field not observable until another magnetic field reveals it (Magnetic Domains/Block Walls)
            4. Dipoles align when Newton says they shouldn't. (Anisotropic Energy)<--- Unexpected Quantum Effect

Or simply.. When you take 1 billion randomly orientated magnets and get them pointing all in the same direction,
                      the result is a very large magnetic field not previously observable.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Look for a diagram in the near future explaining this.

Non-Linear Systems Rule,
                                             The Observer

I am no detractor, my other screen name is Armagdn03 and I have been around for a loooong time, I just dont always like to make waves, so have an alternate name.

Take for example a coil with no iron core, measure the ammount of energy it takes to reach saturation for the current input. In other words, if you put in X energy, how long before the inductive rise curve flatens out. This will be rather quick, because you have little indcutance, thus a fast inductive rise time. Now calculate the energy stored within such an inductor, energy equals one half inductance times current squared.

Now compare to a coil with such a core, and a huge permeability. The inductive rise time is many times slower, but the energy stored within the coil is larger.

It is a trade off. One reaches full energy potential really quickly but holds little, the other takes time to fill, but holds much. Time is of the utmost relevance because we are dealing with electrical units with respect to time, thus power.

for example, say you take an air core coil, apply power and note the time it takes to reach a steady current in the coil. Now place a core with permeability 1000 within. Apply power for that exact same time interval, it will NOT reach 1000 times the energy as the air core. It will be nowhere near saturation because the inductive rise time is a thousand times larger. To reach steady current state that the coil with the core, it will take many many many times longer.

All of these questions you have, and wish to work on can be easily calculated using nothing but simple algebra and the equations for inductive rise time and energy stored in an inductor. Give it a try, show the math, and you will find its a wash.

also, in the future, it is not polite to call people detractors with no inkling of proof other than the person who speaks disagrees with what you have to say. In professional world that is called a
"red haring" or calling attention to an outside idea to subtract from the message of the speaker. The most respected retort to a statement you disagree with is to share a well thought out response offering insight rather than accusation.

[The Observer]

Sudo,

This is a great point... the inductive rise time.

I can do approximate math.

                 Say the Magnetic Field with air core is 1 and the inductive rise was .5 seconds at 1 amp.

                 Since the Magnetic field with iron core is 5000 you think the rise time is ~ 5000x(.5 seconds).
                          or 2500 seconds which equals 41 minutes !!!!!

My Friend, this isn't even close... turns out it's faster not slower as you say.

                                              There is no Trade-Off

If you study this video closely, you will see that the rise time to max current ~ 1.24 amps
                                        is shorter with the Iron Core.

                             http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tIaT_EZbMk

Without the iron core it appears to take about 1/2 second.
With the iron core it is almost instantaneous.

What you are saying is that a magnet repels iron before it attracts it...
                                                                                                                     which is, of course, pure fiction.

The reason there is a ferro core inside a speaker cone coil
          is because ferro amplifies the small magnetic field of the coil... instantly and effortlessly.

Grand Regards,
                          The Observer

P.S. I realize you think there is no "free lunch" here,
                                                         which leads to the question....

                                           Where do you think there is a "free lunch?"

[Sudonym]

Ill do the math for you even though I believe you are capable.
.

Inductive rise time = Inductance / Resistance. 5 time constants = 99% "full"
say you have 10 amps at 99% and this is where it levels off.
Say the inductance is one, the resistance is one, in 5 seconds, you will be at 99%

The energy stored in this coil after this time will be equal to one half the inductance times the current squared with comes to 50 joules.

Now lets take inductance at 1000, resistance at 1 and 10 amps. All we have changed is the inductance.

now our rise time will be 1000/1 for one time constant, after 5 of these the current will be 10 amps, but it will take 5 time constants to get there, or 5000 seconds.
energy in the coil at this point is, 500 *10 squared, or 50,000 joules.

Example one took 5 seconds and we end at 50 joules
example two took 5000 seconds and we end at 50,000

Divide it out, 50 joules over 5 seconds = ten watts of energy
50,000 joules  over 5000 seconds = Ten watts of energy

percentage difference = 0

It sounds like 5000 seconds is alot of time for the rise of a coil, but consider we are dealing with a 1 ohm 1000henry coil in this example, which is almost to large to concieve, but I chose to show the extreems so that the point is clearly illustrated.

I really don't enjoy raining on parades, I just know that I would like someone to inform me if I was incorrect so that I spend less time with incorrect assumptions,and progress can be made faster.

Where is the free lunch? I think you are on the right track, it is important to have a very good understanding of the basics, because even they are not totally understood in their present form, having a grasp on these things that you are now questioning will prepare you to make some frightful progress.

P.S. The video you showed is not evidence of rise time. One would need a source which chops a DC current into segments longer than the rise time, then measure with an oscilloscope where the signal flattens. Then I would divide by 5, pull out the ol Inductance meter and Ohm meter, measure these two variables, plug em into the equation, and see if my experimental results match my predicted. I would never trust my eyesight and pocket watch to measure like I assume you did with this video (since the person who created it never goes over this) because the time increments are way too small to do effectively. I can guarantee his time constants are getting larger as the core goes in.

These equations are time tested and good, all modern broadcast of radio, tv, cell phones etc, rely on the correct calculation of resonant circuits, of which inductors are one half. If you find a way to break this you would have something, but as of yet.....I dont see any gain. .

[The Observer]

Sudo,

Thanks for doing a better calculation than me.

My rough approximation was 41 minutes for a permeability of 5000.
      *note... this was a low guess because the average current would be on the order of 1/2(max Current)*
       Perhaps 2x41 minutes would be a more accurate estimate which would be 82 minutes.

Your calculation was 83 minutes for a permeability of 1000.

              I think it is obvious that this isn't how the real world works !!!!!!
             Can You imagine the Electromagnet Operator at the junkyard waiting a few hours every time he picks up a car???
                            Not !!!
                                 
Again,I ask you look at the video... you can see that the rise time to 1.24 amps is SHORTER with the Iron Core..

                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tIaT_EZbMk

A charging iron core solenoid displays non-linear properties as do forced resonant systems.

Have a Good Day,
                             The Observer

P.S. Let us know what your OU/ nonlinear-system ideas are.

[Sudonym]

I think you are mistaken, and this is exactly how the real world works. The electromagnet in a junk yard is nowhere near 1 ohm 1000 henries, it is a fraction of that, yet they pour a ton of current through. This way you have a strong magnetic field which develops quickly.

Let me do another calculation to show you how big such a coil in my example would be.

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/Inductor/

I used this online calculator for which I have checked the math and it is decent.

For a one henry coil, 8 guage wire, 10inches diameter, and 10inches high, you would have a

Wire Length    of 6601.87 feet
Copper Weight of 329.93 pounds
at an ohmic resistance of 4.23 ohms

to get one ohm you would need to use guage 2 instead of 8 which would give around 1.03ohms
http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html
http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html

which gives us a coil weight of 1675 pounds!

This a ONE OHM ONE HENRY COIL!

we haven't even put the core in which throws our Heny's up to 1000,

Magnetic field strenght put out by an inductor is measured in amp turns, or amps x turns
Therefore you can pick up cars by reducing turns, increasing amps, and you have powerful magnet which has fast inductive rise time, this is exactly how it works.

My "non linear" systems are on youtube under user Tortuga0303
My brainchild is eccentric transformer theory, which I have discussed on the Energeticforum.com and now in depth with the stiffler scientific forum,

I am not here to share my systems, I am here keep people from being mislead, which is a waste of time for us all.

(note: the above calculations are not 100% accurate because as wire size changes so does the physical dimensions of the inductor causing a difference, but either way this is a close approximation to illustrate an example)