Magnetic OU principle, You should really take a look at this !

[What_The_Flux]

who cares who did what first? If the rings push out more energy than it takes to lower and raise the magnet then fun times for all. Everything else is just bullSh*t. To be honest this doesn't look any different than any other magnet jigga any of us have seen. Yes magnets store energy but really the only way to release that energy is by heat. Everything else is just transferring kinetic into whatever. Make love, not PMM's.

I guess I wouldn't have said it quite as coarsely as scraven, but I need help with the fundamentals of this concept. I have looked through this site and through the JLN site trying to find test data on the most basic experiments and underlying assumptions of this technique.

My initial bench tests using PMs and washers, as in the diagram at the beginning of this thread, leave me questioning why we should expect more work out than in.

When put between a strong magnetic field, the washers clearly separate, but I find the force keeping them apart to be relatively small, compared to the overall magnetic field in the center, and the force required to push the washers well into the flux field.

While it may feel like the same force to remove the magnets regardless of whether the washers are together or apart, it stands to reason that there will be some incremental difference because of the rearrangement of the flux field when the washers separate. My hypothesis is that this difference is equal to the force keeping the washers apart.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd like to know if anyone out there has actually tested the forces involved, and has shown that work out > work in at the most fundamental level of this experiment.

[Yucca]

I guess I wouldn't have said it quite as coarsely as scraven, but I need help with the fundamentals of this concept. I have looked through this site and through the JLN site trying to find test data on the most basic experiments and underlying assumptions of this technique.

My initial bench tests using PMs and washers, as in the diagram at the beginning of this thread, leave me questioning why we should expect more work out than in.

When put between a strong magnetic field, the washers clearly separate, but I find the force keeping them apart to be relatively small, compared to the overall magnetic field in the center, and the force required to push the washers well into the flux field.

While it may feel like the same force to remove the magnets regardless of whether the washers are together or apart, it stands to reason that there will be some incremental difference because of the rearrangement of the flux field when the washers separate. My hypothesis is that this difference is equal to the force keeping the washers apart.

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'd like to know if anyone out there has actually tested the forces involved, and has shown that work out > work in at the most fundamental level of this experiment.

Dave Squires did note he witnessed and measured damn near symetrical in and out forces. My only fear at the moment is that the out force will be exerted over a greater distance as the steel is seperated and so it's attractiveness as a body as a whole may be greater and thus the work symmetry may not be quite as Dave is presuming.

I guess the simplest way to test for COP>1 is to try and build a bare bones self runner. Everything else we all hypothesise about (myself included) is just hot air.

I have some good magnets, I just need to find the time and materials and I will try and build.

NOTE:
You mentioned "the force required to push the washers well into the flux field" From my experiments I find that the mild steel washers are pulled into the flux field and the system will gain energy from that. You need to force them out, that's what costs you energy.

[infringer]

Yeah what the flux is going on here muah...

I have tried the basic design and to me it seems as if it may work if careful desgin is put into play...

Think of it this way I suppose if the plates were heavy we could use a hydrolic piston to turn a turbine...

But it appears as if the more heave the plates the more magnetic interaction needed weather electromagnetic or not...

I'm interested in seeing how yucca's idea would work with my twist 1 load 12 pistons that means if the unit spins only at 5 rpms the pistons would spin at 60rpms? Is this not more output then input? IDK it sounds possible or at at the least worth looking at!

While I wish harti would share a nice photo with us where you at stephan are you working on another undisclosed project or busy with home life?
We all love it when you jump in and share your ideas and give us some words of wisdom with all your expiramental expirences.
This is open source aint it so lets party like an open source community!

I dont think it is coincidence that optimistic begins with the same letter as overunity.
This is the state of mind one must keep lose or win!

Failure to do so will result in missing a small key point in achiving our common goal. It is a lot more thought and work but no one said it was easy.

Take nothing for granted test and test again.

-infringer-

[What_The_Flux]

I guess the simplest way to test for COP>1 is to try and build a bare bones self runner. Everything else we all hypothesise about (myself included) is just hot air.

NOTE:
You mentioned "the force required to push the washers well into the flux field" From my experiments I find that the mild steel washers are pulled into the flux field and the system will gain energy from that. You need to force them out, that's what costs you energy.

Good comments, all.

As Yucca said, I also do find an attractive force as the washers enter the field, but then I feel a repulsive force as they go further towards the center, where the spreading effect is maximized.

I think before spending much time and dollars on a complete 'self-runner' prototype, I will try to obtain some force data using my dynamometer. Unfortunately my equipment and tool building is limited. I was really hoping someone with a real lab had already taken some measurements. It was stated earlier in this thread that the separating force was 'much greater' than the insertion force. This is what I think we need to verify. So far I don't see that degree of force. Anyone who can point me to such experiments, please post it here. Thanks.

[Yucca]

OK...After dreaming a little more about I've come up with a better idea, it's MUCH simpler to build.

You will notice in the diagram that the long arced stator steels are all sloping outward slightly, so the seperation force will cause the rotor steels to constantly move anticlockwise as they try and seperate from the stator steels.

I will try and build an initial prototype with one rotor set and one stator steel, I have gutted a ballraced computer fan and it has yielded a VERY free running rotating platform.

The diagram shows 5 rotor sets and 4 stator steels, this will greatly reduce cogging. Also the motor in the diagram would run anticlockwise (provided the effect yields cop>1).