The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)

[Nabo00o]

As I have looked around the forum for a while it seems like this problem (or blessing) with standard heat systems have not been discussed here yet. The problem is, that as we all know, a standard heatpump gives much more heat for the money than by using pure resisting heating. But why is this? When we are talking about a high efficiency heat pump, there is to be as little heat as possible created in the circuit, the main point is that heat is moved and compressed, so that we can use the temperature potential differance between the sink and the source. But energy is not removed to were the energy is moved, instead a higher potential is seemingly created allmost out of nothing, as the COP of the heatpump usualy is from 3 to 4 (times as much heat as eneergy put in).

But how can this be, I'd would like some open-minded replies to explain this phenomenan

[spinner]

Heat pumps are exactly what their name says.

A thermodynamic system where one of the inputs is electricity (to drive a compressor, pumps ventillators, circuitry,...) AND the other input is HEAT, pumped out from some other place (ambient air, river, soil, solar, geothermal, ...,...).

Heat pump output (like central heating) "appears" to be several times more efficient, if one looks just an input of electricity. If boiler is heated with a 4kW heat pump with a CoP of 4, this device uses 1 kW of electricity AND 3kW of heat from some other place...

Needless to say, the source (from where the heat is pumped out) is cooling down (extraction of heat). But who cares if - e.g. the river flowing nearby gets cooler for a 0,001 deg?

P.S. check out the operation of a refridgerator in your kitchen. It's the same.
Some nasty people say this is the only "FE" device widely used....

[Steven Dufresne]

@Nabo00o,.
Also, see this topic:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5452.msg124249.html#msg124249
and specifically reply #10.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

[ChileanOne]

Heat pumps are exactly what their name says.

A thermodynamic system where one of the inputs is electricity (to drive a compressor, pumps ventillators, circuitry,...) AND the other input is HEAT, pumped out from some other place (ambient air, river, soil, solar, geothermal, ...,...).

Heat pump output (like central heating) "appears" to be several times more efficient, if one looks just an input of electricity. If boiler is heated with a 4kW heat pump with a CoP of 4, this device uses 1 kW of electricity AND 3kW of heat from some other place...

Needless to say, the source (from where the heat is pumped out) is cooling down (extraction of heat). But who cares if - e.g. the river flowing nearby gets cooler for a 0,001 deg?

P.S. check out the operation of a refridgerator in your kitchen. It's the same.
Some nasty people say this is the only "FE" device widely used....

Hello Spinner:

The FE confusion arises, I think, from the fact that environmental heat is as free as sun and/or wind, but, I agree that this is far from being OU in the sense "we FE woo woos" understand OU.

The National Institute of Oceanic Technology (NIOT) from India has developped a process called "Low temperature thermal desalination" (LTTD) based on the Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) technology, that uses the same principle of taking massive amounts of heat from the environment to generate distilled water. From the economic point of view, you use 180 watts of commercial electric energy (basically to pump sea water and create a partial vaccum chamber with a vaccum pump) to generate 1 cubic meter of distilled water. The process also takes around 36 Kw in the form of environmental heat for every cubic meter of water produced, but nobody has to pay for it, hence is "free".  If you compare the economic energy cost of this process with the current main technology used for desalination (Reverse Osmosis) that uses an average of 3,5 Kw of electric energy (to pump the water at high pressure through the membranes) per each cubic meter of water produced, you can see that the LTTD is far more convenient.

I doubt that anyone would really miss the environmental heat, that ultimately comes from solar energy, as long as the sun shines in the sky.

Regards.

[Nabo00o]

I agree that when you use a heat pump and get so much more energy out than what you used it is because the energy (the heat) is collected from the outside enviroment (like a river), thus making it cooler. But that coolness is really extra energy.............
Don't you agree that if you seperate an ambient temperature into two different potentials, either a cooler one or a hotter one, you have an extra source of energy. Because as you well know a sterling engine can effectivly use both cooler and warmer than normal temperature to turn its wheel. And what a heat pump is doing is that it seperates and creates a higher temperature potential than what a normal 100% efficient heat element can, and twise again because the coolness can also be used as energy. This is what it does, that's what the COP 3-4 stands for, even though if you are told that it simply "extracts" it from somewere else, the energy is added, and it does not comply with a normal thermal dynamic system, its FAR over unity.

Think about it. The first thing you would say is that "the energy is extracted from a source thus the source gets cooler". Well, than you have not only added extra energy in your system, but you have also added an extra input of energy in the source (even though if its cooled and seems like it has lost energy).

And the point to all of this is, you could make a complete "closed" and isolated enviroment, were there was no input of temperature energy, only electricity, and you could have generated a higher output of electricity out because you had combined the heat pump with a stirling engine, which is great at converting heat to mechanical energy, which then could have turned a generator.

Since all that a heat pump does is to seperate the temperature, and all that a stirling engine does is to recombine it (elimenating the potential), the total temperature of that enviroment would neither increase or decrease (if you look away from friction). Still, the "magic" of the heat pump will remain, and will have its COP at something like 6 or 7, but the total efficiency of the system would go far beyond unity (if you look away from the backround potential which is the real power behind the motion).

This is what I wanted the people who looked at this topic to think about, were am I wrong?
Tell me, and especially you who are certain that the second law of thermodynamics cannot be broken.
If you are wrong, this could be the experiment that would prove with a straight-forward guide to how to be build, that the laws of thermodynamics is far away from the truth.

Hope sombody bothers to look through this