The Lloyd Tanner Heater..Nearly A Closed Loop

[mscoffman]

Don't forget the wood is being slowly combusted during the friction event.
So in this method, one has heating from both the mechanical friction and the
chemical value of burning the wood. But CO^2 is released to the atmosphere.
It is better though then pure wood burning in a furnace. I think the key might
be to have it burn standard sizes of wood like 2"x4"'s  or those commercial
fireplace logs. One could load then into a bin and forget them.

Oil friction furnaces are different in the the oil is not consummed.

:S:MarkSCoffman

[Paul-R]

What is the electrical power into the motor?

What is the rate of heat supplied to the water?

Paul.

[rickoff]

i want to do this exact same thing. but with one steel bowl spinning inside another. another that has motor oil in it.
the friction is what causes the heat.
it is not necessary to destroy materials, to get friction.

Yes, that's a good point, and a viable option, although not as effective at producing heat as a solid-to-solid friction device like Lloyd's.  Jetijs has been experimenting with the idea of using the oil method to transfer heat directly from the rotor of Lloyd's device to the steam vessel.  He has a separate thread going for those ideas, and it can be seen here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2878-my-replication-fuelless-oil-heater.html#post31564  For construction plans, see the following site: http://1a26.com/pdf/Free%20Energy/Fuelless%20Heater.pdf  This does produce heat, and it would be a viable source for home heating if operated by a low amperage drive motor such as a Lindemann attraction motor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyuTOQkb91k, or a RotoVerter. http://www.panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf

As to the non-destructive aspects, the fuelless heater method is a winner - no doubt about that.  But keep in mind that millions of people are already burning wood, or wood pellets, to produce heat, and that the trend increases with high heating oil prices.  Wood is a renewable resource, so it will always be used by people. Use of LLoyd's device to heat their homes would immensely reduce the amount of wood being used, and would also greatly decrease emissions, while also providing a method of generating household electrical power.  The cost savings would be very substantial, and I think that is what would motivate most people to implement Lloyd's device.  It just seems like a win-win situation for everyone (except big oil and the utilities, of course).

Best to you, 

Rick   

[rickoff]

Don't forget the wood is being slowly combusted during the friction event.
So in this method, one has heating from both the mechanical friction and the
chemical value of burning the wood. But CO^2 is released to the atmosphere.
It is better though then pure wood burning in a furnace. I think the key might
be to have it burn standard sizes of wood like 2"x4"'s  or those commercial
fireplace logs. One could load then into a bin and forget them.

Hi Mark,

The 4x4's used by Lloyd will last for a 3 day continuous run, and that is while using the 16 inch long chunks as shown in the video demo.  You certainly could use smaller dimensional wood, such as 2x4's, and that would be very practical for Lloyd's newer horizontal friction roller design, where you can load in multiple pieces of wood at one time.  Lloyd is also suggesting use of a vertical cartridge type of loading mechanism, similar to that of a rifle cartridge magazine.  Another possibility is to build a longer trough and load several lengths of wood end to end.  Relatively short pieces of wood, perhaps 16 to 24 inches, appear to work best to eliminate feed problems otherwise caused by warpage.  Keep in mind, too, that Lloyd's device is meant to use green, unseasoned, rough-cut hardwood with a full size cut, and not dried dimensional lumber.  As to environmental aspects, Lloyd's method is far more environmentally friendly than burning wood.  No chimney is required, and Lloyd says that only a small amount of ash is produced as the wood wears down.  It is an established fact that dead and decaying wood, when left in a forest, essentially produces the same emissions as burning of wood.  Also, tree growth is accellerated when a forest is thinned out to remove competitive trees vying for the same growth area, nutrients, and sunlight.  So continuous management, harvesting, and utilization of renewable wood resources is actually beneficial, when conducted properly.  Here in Maine, a great many people rely on wood heat, either totally or as a supplement, and 95% or more of all existing and newly constructed homes are wood framed.  Still, fully 90% of the land area in Maine remains as forested land fully capable of sustaining such usage.

Just some food for thought.  Best wishes to you Mark,

Rick   

   

[rickoff]

What is the electrical power into the motor?
What is the rate of heat supplied to the water?
Paul.

Hi Paul,
The answer to these questions depends upon factors related to your actual build, and how you intend to use the device.  If you use an efficient motor, such as the Lindemann attraction motor or the RotoVerter (see my earlier post for information about these) then your power in will be about 1/4 or less than if you operate Lloyd's device using a conventional motor.  Also keep in mind that the motor is only used as a start-up device if you plan on using a steam engine.

Lloyd has tested his device to poduce a constant flow of steam at up to 565 F degrees, and that would equate to a pressure just over 200 psi.  There is no need to operate nearly as high as that, though, to operate a steam engine.  Many will start turning at less than 20 psi.  Also keep in mind that a small increase in temperature produces a relatively large gain in pressure on the steam saturation curve.

You don't need to double the temperature to double the pressure. And if you only want to produce domestic hot water, and/or baseboard heating hot water, you only need heat the water to between 140 and 160 F degrees at atmospheric pressure (14 psi).  Lloyd's device can do this so easily that it will not have to run continuously, and a thermostatic switch would only start the motor when the temperature of the water falls to the lower end of the desired range.  Incidentally, I recently picked up a Honeywell R8182H boiler control unit for just 99 cents on Ebay, and this would be perfect for controlling water heating applications with Lloyd's device.  The retail price of a new R8182H unit is over $400, so I really found a great deal.  Turns out that I was the only bidder!   

Rick